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This comment is perpetuating many falsehoods about obesity. For most people with chronic obesity, it is not really a matter of willpower. Just because the direc

by tobr 9y ago

This comment is perpetuating many falsehoods about obesity. For most people with chronic obesity, it is not really a matter of willpower. Just because the direct cause of their condition is too high food intake, it does not mean that it’s a “choice”. Their bodies are programmed to require large amounts of food. Losing weight by willpower in the short term just increases the signals to eat, and may cause weight gain in the long run. The only effective treatment in the long run is gastric bypass.

maccard 9y ago
Have you a source in the only effective treatment being a gastric bypass?
- tobr 9y ago
  This Vox article is a well sourced but easy to read overview. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/bariatric-surgery-weight-loss-lap-band https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/ba...
tarsinge 9y ago
I disagree. “Bodies programmed to require large amount of foods” only makes sense if someone is diabetic. Otherwise it’s pure willpower (well technically being able to delay gratification) combined with healthy food. E.g start a meal with a raw brocoli and it’ll be physically difficult to put other things in your stomach after. Yes it’s very hard but I did it myself, you always have to think I’m suffering now but I’ll be good looking one day (and yes it takes years) Edit: though I understand that all people may not have the same capacity to delay gratification
croon 9y ago
That is entirely false. First off: "Require" means what your body needs to sustain itself, which I would say is your TDEE. This changes when you gain weight or lose weight, or recomp. Secondly: You can definitely "reprogram" when you get hungry, it only takes a few weeks. > Losing weight by willpower in the short term just increases the signals to eat, and may cause weight gain in the long run. This depends entirely on how you lose weight. As obesity (for the vast majority part, excluding thyroid and other physical problems) is a matter of habit, if you starve yourself from your usual diet for a few weeks in an attempt to reset your weight, of course you are going to relapse. Temporary dieting can by definition never work. A diet is the habit of what you eat. If you create the habit of eating like someone who weighs 50 kg less than you, you will start losing weight, fast at first, and then slower until it plateaus. I agree that not everyone is exactly the same, so basal metabolism between two similar people can vary a few hundred or so kcal/day. Gastric bypass can in rare cases be necessary, but it's definitely a last resort, and unneeded in most cases.
- memebox3v 9y ago
  God. This "free will trumps all things. You are in total control of your destiny. All things that happen to you are your own doing" needs to die. Slowly and painfully. You are a tiny sliver of consciousness on top of a vast, powerful machine. That machine gives you ideas, manages your body, and dictates your desires. Using conscious will power to try to overcome innate points of equilibrium in the system that is you, is extremely difficult in most cases. And in some cases it is impossible.
  - croon 9y ago
    I never once said it was easy, and I'm not saying that everyone has the will power for it. I'm merely stating that barring physical ailments, everyone can technically do it. Neither of my parents worked out a day in their life, and neither did I until my late 20s. So I definitely understand the point of view of never learning good habits, but bad habits and not making choices are also a habit, even if you haven't realized an alternative.
  - cornholio 9y ago
    It's always possible, but much harder for some people. It's in many ways like alcoholism or other addictions: it's not useful to pontificate to alcoholics and blame them for a lack of of will power when dealing with a serious mental impairment. Yet, willpower remains the single best cure against addiction, encouraging people to leave themselves at the hands of impulse is not healthy advice. People do lose weight and keep it off by willpower, addicts change their lives by willpower. Gastric bypass is not a silver bullet, it's a major surgery with a significant mortality rate and is always a last resort for the most severe cases who have at least made an effort.
    - memebox3v 9y ago
      Impulse over powers free will in the long term. Try starving yourself to death. Unless you are exceptional your will power will fail you. Ultimately you are not the master of desire. Desire is the master of you.
    - 9y ago
BrandoElFollito 9y ago
This comment comes from me travelling all the time between Asia, Europe and the US. And comparing the volume of people in different countries, usually US or wealthy China vs. France (my country) or Italy or Japan. The difference is striking. It doesn't come from the fact that Americans or wealthy Chinese have some physiological problem: they just eat TONS of food and drink pure sugar (last one is for the US). One should not look for fancy explanations when the evidence is there: people are more and more obese because they eat shitty food and drink sugar. And do not talk me about "the poors who cannot afford anything else". We have poverty in France as well, and these people are not horrifically obese. Chronic obesity means chronic overeating. Except for the infinitesimal minority wich was obese 100 years ago as well because of the weird gene. When they become obese, they are programmed to be even more obese. Or "big boned". And like with everything in life, willpower moves you ahead in most cases. There is one genius for every 100 hard working people (with willpower) and 100 slackers (in the same demographics). I cut by 1/3 to 1/2 what I was eating. I eat the same things, just less. And more fruit, and almost no sugar. Was it hard? Yes, to a point. Was it excruciating? No - I was just salivating while looking at a nice cake and my brain decided to say "no". I still have a hamburger from time to time (say, every two weeks). It is European size. My kid made a cake, I had two parts (even if it was awful, way too sugary). I bike to the office because I love it, and play sports again. Just because I WANT TO.
- tobr 9y ago
  I’m not saying that obesity does not come from eating too much and/or eating the wrong type of food. I’m talking about the mechanisms that drive this behavior, and what it takes to beat them. Willpower is not enough to beat actual, chronic/morbid obesity. The only known solution is surgery. Your comments are bordering on fat-shaming, which I find completely unacceptable.
  - BrandoElFollito 9y ago
    My comments are not bordering on fat-shaming, they are fat-shaming. Not the "ha ha ha, look at this guy, gross" fat-shaming, but the "stop lying to yourself and publicly expressing the fact that I should treat you in a special way" fat-shaming. I understand that not everyone has will power. I understand that this means that these people will be overweight. What I do not understand is that we need to be extra careful with their feelings, not offend anyone and treat the whole thing as if it was normal. I find it unacceptable that a life posture which is driven, in the overwhelming number of cases, by laziness and treating one's body as a trashbin is supposed to be approached with special care. 2% of this population will have the mental disease which does not allow them to actually take care about themselves. I honestly pity them (see below). The others actively and consciously act towards their obesity. This is the same as with cigarettes: you are free to smoke (away from me) but please do not beg for my tax euros later when you have a cancer derived from that. Or expect that I will live with the cigarette smell. Or that I will fly with half of your body on mine, because you are "weight impaired". Before the gates of hell open, a few remarks: - I am profoundly for a social state, like we have in France. I am happy to pay taxes so that people who are unfairly hit by life have the same chance as i have to live a normal life. I always had this state of mind, and now even more with a handicapped wife and a sick child. - I believe that a mature person has to face the music: if you want to go for mountain climbing and freeze at 8000 m in winter on that difficult slope, this a choice of yours. If you eat like a hippo, well this is your choice as well so do not be offended if you need to go to a zoo to get an x-ray (a case of a few years ago). - Some people are just unlucky in life and we should do whatever we can to help these people. Unfortunately, the vast majority of overeaters are very vocal about their suffering (between two burgers) and it silences the minority who actually has a problem. This minority takes the hit. This is horrible, I witness it all the time with my wife who uses a disabled parking because she cannot walk too much (and has other problems) and people are looking at her because she looks normal. Finally about the gastric surgery: if you pay for it, no problem. This is not going to change your mind and your children will probably be overweight (or not, I hope not). If I have to pay for this comfort, I do not agree. Too bad for you, you will die earlier because you want to. I will keep that money for the 2% who actually have a disease.
raverbashing 9y ago
If they were to be sent to a desert island, they would lose weight Have them exercise, switch sugary soft drinks on refill with water and not eat the one pizza per day or something "they must have", replace that with filling but low calorie food if needed and see what happens This excuse sounds like the excuses for why the US has more school shootings than every other country.

by tobr 9y ago

maccard 9y ago

Have you a source in the only effective treatment being a gastric bypass?

tobr 9y ago
This Vox article is a well sourced but easy to read overview. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/bariatric-surgery-weight-loss-lap-band https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/ba...

tarsinge 9y ago

I disagree. “Bodies programmed to require large amount of foods” only makes sense if someone is diabetic. Otherwise it’s pure willpower (well technically being able to delay gratification) combined with healthy food. E.g start a meal with a raw brocoli and it’ll be physically difficult to put other things in your stomach after. Yes it’s very hard but I did it myself, you always have to think I’m suffering now but I’ll be good looking one day (and yes it takes years) Edit: though I understand that all people may not have the same capacity to delay gratification

croon 9y ago

That is entirely false. First off: "Require" means what your body needs to sustain itself, which I would say is your TDEE. This changes when you gain weight or lose weight, or recomp. Secondly: You can definitely "reprogram" when you get hungry, it only takes a few weeks. > Losing weight by willpower in the short term just increases the signals to eat, and may cause weight gain in the long run. This depends entirely on how you lose weight. As obesity (for the vast majority part, excluding thyroid and other physical problems) is a matter of habit, if you starve yourself from your usual diet for a few weeks in an attempt to reset your weight, of course you are going to relapse. Temporary dieting can by definition never work. A diet is the habit of what you eat. If you create the habit of eating like someone who weighs 50 kg less than you, you will start losing weight, fast at first, and then slower until it plateaus. I agree that not everyone is exactly the same, so basal metabolism between two similar people can vary a few hundred or so kcal/day. Gastric bypass can in rare cases be necessary, but it's definitely a last resort, and unneeded in most cases.

memebox3v 9y ago
God. This "free will trumps all things. You are in total control of your destiny. All things that happen to you are your own doing" needs to die. Slowly and painfully. You are a tiny sliver of consciousness on top of a vast, powerful machine. That machine gives you ideas, manages your body, and dictates your desires. Using conscious will power to try to overcome innate points of equilibrium in the system that is you, is extremely difficult in most cases. And in some cases it is impossible.
- croon 9y ago
  I never once said it was easy, and I'm not saying that everyone has the will power for it. I'm merely stating that barring physical ailments, everyone can technically do it. Neither of my parents worked out a day in their life, and neither did I until my late 20s. So I definitely understand the point of view of never learning good habits, but bad habits and not making choices are also a habit, even if you haven't realized an alternative.
- cornholio 9y ago
  It's always possible, but much harder for some people. It's in many ways like alcoholism or other addictions: it's not useful to pontificate to alcoholics and blame them for a lack of of will power when dealing with a serious mental impairment. Yet, willpower remains the single best cure against addiction, encouraging people to leave themselves at the hands of impulse is not healthy advice. People do lose weight and keep it off by willpower, addicts change their lives by willpower. Gastric bypass is not a silver bullet, it's a major surgery with a significant mortality rate and is always a last resort for the most severe cases who have at least made an effort.
  - memebox3v 9y ago
    Impulse over powers free will in the long term. Try starving yourself to death. Unless you are exceptional your will power will fail you. Ultimately you are not the master of desire. Desire is the master of you.
  - 9y ago

BrandoElFollito 9y ago

This comment comes from me travelling all the time between Asia, Europe and the US. And comparing the volume of people in different countries, usually US or wealthy China vs. France (my country) or Italy or Japan. The difference is striking. It doesn't come from the fact that Americans or wealthy Chinese have some physiological problem: they just eat TONS of food and drink pure sugar (last one is for the US). One should not look for fancy explanations when the evidence is there: people are more and more obese because they eat shitty food and drink sugar. And do not talk me about "the poors who cannot afford anything else". We have poverty in France as well, and these people are not horrifically obese. Chronic obesity means chronic overeating. Except for the infinitesimal minority wich was obese 100 years ago as well because of the weird gene. When they become obese, they are programmed to be even more obese. Or "big boned". And like with everything in life, willpower moves you ahead in most cases. There is one genius for every 100 hard working people (with willpower) and 100 slackers (in the same demographics). I cut by 1/3 to 1/2 what I was eating. I eat the same things, just less. And more fruit, and almost no sugar. Was it hard? Yes, to a point. Was it excruciating? No - I was just salivating while looking at a nice cake and my brain decided to say "no". I still have a hamburger from time to time (say, every two weeks). It is European size. My kid made a cake, I had two parts (even if it was awful, way too sugary). I bike to the office because I love it, and play sports again. Just because I WANT TO.

tobr 9y ago
I’m not saying that obesity does not come from eating too much and/or eating the wrong type of food. I’m talking about the mechanisms that drive this behavior, and what it takes to beat them. Willpower is not enough to beat actual, chronic/morbid obesity. The only known solution is surgery. Your comments are bordering on fat-shaming, which I find completely unacceptable.
- BrandoElFollito 9y ago
  My comments are not bordering on fat-shaming, they are fat-shaming. Not the "ha ha ha, look at this guy, gross" fat-shaming, but the "stop lying to yourself and publicly expressing the fact that I should treat you in a special way" fat-shaming. I understand that not everyone has will power. I understand that this means that these people will be overweight. What I do not understand is that we need to be extra careful with their feelings, not offend anyone and treat the whole thing as if it was normal. I find it unacceptable that a life posture which is driven, in the overwhelming number of cases, by laziness and treating one's body as a trashbin is supposed to be approached with special care. 2% of this population will have the mental disease which does not allow them to actually take care about themselves. I honestly pity them (see below). The others actively and consciously act towards their obesity. This is the same as with cigarettes: you are free to smoke (away from me) but please do not beg for my tax euros later when you have a cancer derived from that. Or expect that I will live with the cigarette smell. Or that I will fly with half of your body on mine, because you are "weight impaired". Before the gates of hell open, a few remarks: - I am profoundly for a social state, like we have in France. I am happy to pay taxes so that people who are unfairly hit by life have the same chance as i have to live a normal life. I always had this state of mind, and now even more with a handicapped wife and a sick child. - I believe that a mature person has to face the music: if you want to go for mountain climbing and freeze at 8000 m in winter on that difficult slope, this a choice of yours. If you eat like a hippo, well this is your choice as well so do not be offended if you need to go to a zoo to get an x-ray (a case of a few years ago). - Some people are just unlucky in life and we should do whatever we can to help these people. Unfortunately, the vast majority of overeaters are very vocal about their suffering (between two burgers) and it silences the minority who actually has a problem. This minority takes the hit. This is horrible, I witness it all the time with my wife who uses a disabled parking because she cannot walk too much (and has other problems) and people are looking at her because she looks normal. Finally about the gastric surgery: if you pay for it, no problem. This is not going to change your mind and your children will probably be overweight (or not, I hope not). If I have to pay for this comfort, I do not agree. Too bad for you, you will die earlier because you want to. I will keep that money for the 2% who actually have a disease.

raverbashing 9y ago

If they were to be sent to a desert island, they would lose weight Have them exercise, switch sugary soft drinks on refill with water and not eat the one pizza per day or something "they must have", replace that with filling but low calorie food if needed and see what happens This excuse sounds like the excuses for why the US has more school shootings than every other country.