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If you are running 30 minutes late, you are saying that whatever you did in those 30 minutes is significantly more important than the fact that the other person

If you are running 30 minutes late, you are saying that whatever you did in those 30 minutes is significantly more important than the fact that the other person loses 30 minutes. Occasionally, that is true. Most often, it is simply a sign that you disrespect the other person. It's not about being "obsessed with punctuality", it's about realizing that the other person has a schedule that you are impacting as well. And then choosing to not give a damn, in the case of perpetual lateness.

JimboOmega 9y ago
It's very possible to have every intent and desire to be on time, and still fail at it. Some people have problem with things like attention and executive function that make planning in time very difficult. For you it might be an issue of not caring. IT's not for everyone.
- shaklee3 9y ago
  It's really not that hard unless you have kids. Just leave earlier. Like someone said, you wouldn't be late for a flight since you actually care.
  - nitrogen 9y ago
    There's a question of cost. Maybe you can be on time for a flight once in a while, but it costs you so much X (time, mental energy, money, whatever) that the same strategies would not help in day-to-day schedules. Ask someone with DSPS, for example.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    You haven't met really time-impaired people if you don't think they'd miss flights and many other things they "actually care".
  - LaGrange 9y ago
    You completely misunderstand how executive functioning deficiency works, it appears. While this was written by a person with chronic pain issues (you might not be aware of!), it applies to many other (often also invisible) disabilities: https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/ https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine.... "Just leave earlier" is about as useful an advice as "grow a new hand."
    - verinus 9y ago
      I have never ever met such a person- what does that say about the probability? Personally I think the probability of this used as an excuse is much higher than of it beeing true.
      - LaGrange 9y ago
        > I have never ever met such a person- what does that say about the probability? You did. You probably have family like that. The fact that you _think_ you never met such a person says a lot about you, though.
- BrandoElFollito 9y ago
  This reminds me of all these obese people who a are obese because of "health issues", to cover their horrific lifestyle. 98% of the cases, probably (I am being generous). Same with the timekeeping : some feel that they are so unique and mentally impaired that keeping time is beyond them. But they just do not give a shit about others. I was 30 kg overweight and had all kind of excuses (including a medical condition). I then moved out of this comfort zone and lost the extra weight. Some peopke will not be able to do that, this is their choice. I will not pity them and certainly not allow for any specific arrangements if I see this is their fault. And yes, when you see someone drinking coke after coke and inguritating mountains of food you are not at risk of hitting the unfortunate 2%. So get a watch, leave an hour early. If an hour is not enough, two hours. Yes, this is impacting but then you choose which time is more important for you. I apologize if you are in the 2% of people who cannot afford a watch or read the time with understanding.
  - tobr 9y ago
    This comment is perpetuating many falsehoods about obesity. For most people with chronic obesity, it is not really a matter of willpower. Just because the direct cause of their condition is too high food intake, it does not mean that it’s a “choice”. Their bodies are programmed to require large amounts of food. Losing weight by willpower in the short term just increases the signals to eat, and may cause weight gain in the long run. The only effective treatment in the long run is gastric bypass.
    - maccard 9y ago
      Have you a source in the only effective treatment being a gastric bypass?
      - tobr 9y ago
        This Vox article is a well sourced but easy to read overview. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/bariatric-surgery-weight-loss-lap-band https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/ba...
    - 9y ago
- dazc 9y ago
  'It's very possible to have every intent and desire to be on time, and still fail at it.' The people who try to arrive 'just in time' are the ones this usually applies to though. If you've ever worked at a place where you have a long commute you'll likely have noticed that the people who are consistently late are those who live closest.
  - JimboOmega 9y ago
    People who really struggle with time management and planning, yup. The lack of an ability to reason about time - to, fundamentally, exercise executive function - leads to these problems where the time estimates are always short. For some people, it's hard to see all the pieces ("take a shower, brush teeth, put on clothes, pack your bag, take the elevator...) that go into one larger task ("getting to work") and reason about them. It's fundamentally a working memory/executive function deficit. It's also shocking to me how every intent of leaving well and truly earlier than I thought can also fall apart. The lack of adrenaline in such situations allows a million distractions to creep in. "Oh, I can spend a few minutes to fix my makeup". "Oh, I haven't watered the plants in a while!" I can try to wall some of them off (I will NOT use the computer or look at my phone), but there's real limits.
- Angostura 9y ago
  Yes, some people may have a neurological deficit. For most though, it’s not caring or lack of empathy
  - LaGrange 9y ago
    May I propose a certain other behaviour here might _actually_ show lack of empathy?
- girzel 9y ago
  I am often late, despite trying not to be. I am also sometimes early. I once arrived 24 hours early for a flight. On two occasions recently I arrived at a doctor's appointment the day before. The first time they thought it was quirky, the second time they looked at me as though there might be more wrong with me than they'd thought.
newnewpdro 9y ago
> If you are running 30 minutes late, you are saying that whatever you did in those 30 minutes is significantly more important than the fact that the other person loses 30 minutes. This is only true if the circumstances knowingly make the person stuck waiting for 30 minutes. That's fairly exceptional, but some people do voluntarily wait for others doing nothing, when the participation of others is entirely optional for the activity - something I don't quite understand. But I have noticed people who do this often aren't really capable of being happy or content independently in general, which I consider a sign of immaturity. That's a different problem, and being punctual for them doesn't fix it.
- kenjackson 9y ago
  I'm not sure what you're talking about.
- maccard 9y ago
  I’m perfectly content to entertain myself, and to be in my own company. But if I make plans with you and you’re 30 minutes late, being pissed at you doesn’t make me immature. Everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes things go wrong, that’s ok. But to be that guy who’s 30 mins late for a group dinner, or to go bowling or to the cinema, and to always have an excuse, that’s _you_ being immature because you’re clearly saying whatever You’re doing is more important than whatever we have planned. Set a reminder on your phone to beep 15 minutes before you need to get ready, and if you ignore it repeatedly, you’re the immature one.
  - newnewpdro 9y ago
    Both bowling and cinema are activities that are essentially still done alone even when done as a group. One person bowls at a time per lane, and watching movies in a theatre is pretty much a silent solitary experience unless you're being a nuisance. If someone's late to go bowling we/I start bowling without them. When they show up, they wait and join in at the next game, or get their own lane. If someone doesn't make it to the cinema before the show starts, I'm watching the movie I wanted to see without them. It's their loss, not mine, and I'm not waiting for them or upset - I'm seeing the movie I wanted to see. It makes relatively little difference to me if they're present for those activities. It's the activity that I'm principally interested in. Sure it's more fun to bowl with others, but only marginally. The last film I went out of my way to see with a friend, afterwards I didn't even understand why I bothered when the experience was largely unchanged from seeing it alone yet I drove across town to watch it sitting next to someone I knew, useful that. Surely you could come up with better examples than those for when to justifiably be upset with a person being late... I'm not even one of those people who's chronically late, I just don't see it as an issue worth fussing over in the vast majority of social circumstances.
Aramgutang 9y ago
No, whenever I'm running 30 minutes late, whatever I did in those 30 minutes was nowhere near as important as the other person's time. It was probably something that didn't deserve my time at all that day, or sometimes even any other day. Those of us who are deficient in executive function aren't "choosing to not give a damn". It's not a "choice". If you're a person who always has complete control over their actions, please consider the fact that some of us don't have that luxury, and our own lives suffer even more from it than the lives of the people who we subject to our tardiness.
- devmunchies 9y ago
  You make yourself sound so powerless and victimized. Surely a self-fulfilling prophecy. You do have a choice—many of them. But it sounds like you’ve made them all in advance.
  - Aramgutang 9y ago
    Surely. Surely not something I've battled with great effort for a very long time. Surely not something I've sought and received treatment for. Surely it's just a choice I made. Maybe people walking around with a cast and crutches are just making themselves look "powerless and victimised". Surely.
    - devmunchies 9y ago
      You seem to be in a hole, friend. Victimization is a state of mind. You could be confined to a wheel chair but that doesn’t make you powerless.
  - manmal 9y ago
    Your comment might come across a bit condescending, coming from someone who perhaps has better executive function (do you?), but I agree that victimization is a BIG problem. Eg every drug addict counselor will tell you that you cannot get better without taking ownership (not blame; that’s separate things!). The problem with low exec function is that you do not realize WHEN you have choices to make; you get sucked into an activity and forget to stop and reflect the situation. In the process you overlook chances to decide, so you get the impression that you cannot decide anything (thus the victimization). Coding does this a lot to me btw, while other activities don’t; might have to do with the amount of energy required for the task as hand. BUT you can choose to train yourself to stop in regular intervals and contemplate the current situation. Over time this will improve. I‘m also experimenting with near infrared light shone on the forehead, which for some reason does wonders for this (increasing energy available to the frontal lobe maybe?).
nitrogen 9y ago
It's quite arrogant for one to think that just because someone is late, they are late out of a lack of respect for one's time. The early person upset their time was wasted is being equally if not more selfish by expecting everyone to move to their whims.
- infinite8s 9y ago
  How is expecting someone to honor a mutual meeting time that they've agreed to in advance a selfish desire that everyone moves to their whims!
  - nitrogen 9y ago
    Because it assumes that their desire for an inviolable mutual meeting time is the only factor in the world that matters. It places their own plans on a pedestal above all other factors that might influence the plans of others.
    - nitrogen 9y ago
      Not that many will be reading this thread at this point, but for the record I'll add that punctuality is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Those who obsess over punctuality are inconsiderate, at best, of every other means, end, demand, and desire.
- Angostura 9y ago
  I’ll be certain to mention their arrogance the next time I turn up somewhere late. Thank you for letting me see what arseholes they are.
HaoZeke 9y ago
This is why older people don't have friends. When you're younger you just wait for the other person.
- firmgently 9y ago
  I don't see why it would have to correlate with age. When I was younger I used to get annoyed at late people more easily. As the years have passed I've developed my philosophy. I still think it's often a sign of selfishness but we all have our flaws. Early on in any relationship I learn which style of timekeeping a person has. You get the people who will warn in advance and apologise profusely if they are going to be 2 minutes late, then at the other end of the scale you have the people who say "I'm just around the corner I'll be there in 5 minutes" and you know they might turn up some time that day/night, if they're having a particularly switched-on day. Once I have my expectations set correctly I don't get annoyed. It does mean that any arrangement with the 'very late' style of friends always has a status of 'tentative'. And I make it clear to them that I may be doing something else by the time they arrive and that they'd better be able to handle that as it's a cost of their style of being. I've never known a late person to have any problem with that arrangement, they generally seem to quite like it as then they know they can do their thing and not worry about putting me out. I've not read the linked article but I've been pretty constant with my level of making new friends throughout my adult life (am in my forties now). I've moved around a bit and lived in a few different towns/cities, had a few career paths, maybe that's relevant. I think some people narrow their worldview as they get older and perhaps this makes them more choosy about who is 'worth it'. I've always been a weirdo/outlier. I'm fine with loads of people around me and making parties etc., but also more than happy in my own company. I noticed quite early in life that I could be accepted in most social groups and drift between them and developed a distaste for cliques and the negative behaviour they encourage (exclusivity, "our love for each other is based on our hatred of everyone else" etc).
Legogris 9y ago
A 30 minute buffer can easily be eaten up by looking for my keys that I KNOW I JUST HAD YESTERDAY WHAT THE HELL, and then having to go back to my apartment after leaving because I forgot my wallet. I have missed flights, and the reason I usually don't is because I plan to arrive at the airport ~3h before departure. Believe me, it's making me way more miserable than the person I'm stressing to meet. It's neither disrespect nor prioritization.
- verinus 9y ago
  This is why people get organized- put in the keys always in the same spot so you do not have to bother thinking about where your keys are. Or Check if they have the fundamentals on your person before leaving- wallet, phone, keys...

JimboOmega 9y ago

It's very possible to have every intent and desire to be on time, and still fail at it. Some people have problem with things like attention and executive function that make planning in time very difficult. For you it might be an issue of not caring. IT's not for everyone.

shaklee3 9y ago
It's really not that hard unless you have kids. Just leave earlier. Like someone said, you wouldn't be late for a flight since you actually care.
- nitrogen 9y ago
  There's a question of cost. Maybe you can be on time for a flight once in a while, but it costs you so much X (time, mental energy, money, whatever) that the same strategies would not help in day-to-day schedules. Ask someone with DSPS, for example.
- icebraining 9y ago
  You haven't met really time-impaired people if you don't think they'd miss flights and many other things they "actually care".
- LaGrange 9y ago
  You completely misunderstand how executive functioning deficiency works, it appears. While this was written by a person with chronic pain issues (you might not be aware of!), it applies to many other (often also invisible) disabilities: https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/ https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine.... "Just leave earlier" is about as useful an advice as "grow a new hand."
  - verinus 9y ago
    I have never ever met such a person- what does that say about the probability? Personally I think the probability of this used as an excuse is much higher than of it beeing true.
    - LaGrange 9y ago
      > I have never ever met such a person- what does that say about the probability? You did. You probably have family like that. The fact that you _think_ you never met such a person says a lot about you, though.
BrandoElFollito 9y ago
This reminds me of all these obese people who a are obese because of "health issues", to cover their horrific lifestyle. 98% of the cases, probably (I am being generous). Same with the timekeeping : some feel that they are so unique and mentally impaired that keeping time is beyond them. But they just do not give a shit about others. I was 30 kg overweight and had all kind of excuses (including a medical condition). I then moved out of this comfort zone and lost the extra weight. Some peopke will not be able to do that, this is their choice. I will not pity them and certainly not allow for any specific arrangements if I see this is their fault. And yes, when you see someone drinking coke after coke and inguritating mountains of food you are not at risk of hitting the unfortunate 2%. So get a watch, leave an hour early. If an hour is not enough, two hours. Yes, this is impacting but then you choose which time is more important for you. I apologize if you are in the 2% of people who cannot afford a watch or read the time with understanding.
- tobr 9y ago
  This comment is perpetuating many falsehoods about obesity. For most people with chronic obesity, it is not really a matter of willpower. Just because the direct cause of their condition is too high food intake, it does not mean that it’s a “choice”. Their bodies are programmed to require large amounts of food. Losing weight by willpower in the short term just increases the signals to eat, and may cause weight gain in the long run. The only effective treatment in the long run is gastric bypass.
  - maccard 9y ago
    Have you a source in the only effective treatment being a gastric bypass?
    - tobr 9y ago
      This Vox article is a well sourced but easy to read overview. https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/bariatric-surgery-weight-loss-lap-band https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/12/7/16587316/ba...
  - 9y ago
dazc 9y ago
'It's very possible to have every intent and desire to be on time, and still fail at it.' The people who try to arrive 'just in time' are the ones this usually applies to though. If you've ever worked at a place where you have a long commute you'll likely have noticed that the people who are consistently late are those who live closest.
- JimboOmega 9y ago
  People who really struggle with time management and planning, yup. The lack of an ability to reason about time - to, fundamentally, exercise executive function - leads to these problems where the time estimates are always short. For some people, it's hard to see all the pieces ("take a shower, brush teeth, put on clothes, pack your bag, take the elevator...) that go into one larger task ("getting to work") and reason about them. It's fundamentally a working memory/executive function deficit. It's also shocking to me how every intent of leaving well and truly earlier than I thought can also fall apart. The lack of adrenaline in such situations allows a million distractions to creep in. "Oh, I can spend a few minutes to fix my makeup". "Oh, I haven't watered the plants in a while!" I can try to wall some of them off (I will NOT use the computer or look at my phone), but there's real limits.
Angostura 9y ago
Yes, some people may have a neurological deficit. For most though, it’s not caring or lack of empathy
- LaGrange 9y ago
  May I propose a certain other behaviour here might _actually_ show lack of empathy?
girzel 9y ago
I am often late, despite trying not to be. I am also sometimes early. I once arrived 24 hours early for a flight. On two occasions recently I arrived at a doctor's appointment the day before. The first time they thought it was quirky, the second time they looked at me as though there might be more wrong with me than they'd thought.

newnewpdro 9y ago

> If you are running 30 minutes late, you are saying that whatever you did in those 30 minutes is significantly more important than the fact that the other person loses 30 minutes. This is only true if the circumstances knowingly make the person stuck waiting for 30 minutes. That's fairly exceptional, but some people do voluntarily wait for others doing nothing, when the participation of others is entirely optional for the activity - something I don't quite understand. But I have noticed people who do this often aren't really capable of being happy or content independently in general, which I consider a sign of immaturity. That's a different problem, and being punctual for them doesn't fix it.

kenjackson 9y ago
I'm not sure what you're talking about.
maccard 9y ago
I’m perfectly content to entertain myself, and to be in my own company. But if I make plans with you and you’re 30 minutes late, being pissed at you doesn’t make me immature. Everyone makes mistakes, and sometimes things go wrong, that’s ok. But to be that guy who’s 30 mins late for a group dinner, or to go bowling or to the cinema, and to always have an excuse, that’s _you_ being immature because you’re clearly saying whatever You’re doing is more important than whatever we have planned. Set a reminder on your phone to beep 15 minutes before you need to get ready, and if you ignore it repeatedly, you’re the immature one.
- newnewpdro 9y ago
  Both bowling and cinema are activities that are essentially still done alone even when done as a group. One person bowls at a time per lane, and watching movies in a theatre is pretty much a silent solitary experience unless you're being a nuisance. If someone's late to go bowling we/I start bowling without them. When they show up, they wait and join in at the next game, or get their own lane. If someone doesn't make it to the cinema before the show starts, I'm watching the movie I wanted to see without them. It's their loss, not mine, and I'm not waiting for them or upset - I'm seeing the movie I wanted to see. It makes relatively little difference to me if they're present for those activities. It's the activity that I'm principally interested in. Sure it's more fun to bowl with others, but only marginally. The last film I went out of my way to see with a friend, afterwards I didn't even understand why I bothered when the experience was largely unchanged from seeing it alone yet I drove across town to watch it sitting next to someone I knew, useful that. Surely you could come up with better examples than those for when to justifiably be upset with a person being late... I'm not even one of those people who's chronically late, I just don't see it as an issue worth fussing over in the vast majority of social circumstances.

Aramgutang 9y ago

No, whenever I'm running 30 minutes late, whatever I did in those 30 minutes was nowhere near as important as the other person's time. It was probably something that didn't deserve my time at all that day, or sometimes even any other day. Those of us who are deficient in executive function aren't "choosing to not give a damn". It's not a "choice". If you're a person who always has complete control over their actions, please consider the fact that some of us don't have that luxury, and our own lives suffer even more from it than the lives of the people who we subject to our tardiness.

devmunchies 9y ago
You make yourself sound so powerless and victimized. Surely a self-fulfilling prophecy. You do have a choice—many of them. But it sounds like you’ve made them all in advance.
- Aramgutang 9y ago
  Surely. Surely not something I've battled with great effort for a very long time. Surely not something I've sought and received treatment for. Surely it's just a choice I made. Maybe people walking around with a cast and crutches are just making themselves look "powerless and victimised". Surely.
  - devmunchies 9y ago
    You seem to be in a hole, friend. Victimization is a state of mind. You could be confined to a wheel chair but that doesn’t make you powerless.
- manmal 9y ago
  Your comment might come across a bit condescending, coming from someone who perhaps has better executive function (do you?), but I agree that victimization is a BIG problem. Eg every drug addict counselor will tell you that you cannot get better without taking ownership (not blame; that’s separate things!). The problem with low exec function is that you do not realize WHEN you have choices to make; you get sucked into an activity and forget to stop and reflect the situation. In the process you overlook chances to decide, so you get the impression that you cannot decide anything (thus the victimization). Coding does this a lot to me btw, while other activities don’t; might have to do with the amount of energy required for the task as hand. BUT you can choose to train yourself to stop in regular intervals and contemplate the current situation. Over time this will improve. I‘m also experimenting with near infrared light shone on the forehead, which for some reason does wonders for this (increasing energy available to the frontal lobe maybe?).

nitrogen 9y ago

It's quite arrogant for one to think that just because someone is late, they are late out of a lack of respect for one's time. The early person upset their time was wasted is being equally if not more selfish by expecting everyone to move to their whims.

infinite8s 9y ago
How is expecting someone to honor a mutual meeting time that they've agreed to in advance a selfish desire that everyone moves to their whims!
- nitrogen 9y ago
  Because it assumes that their desire for an inviolable mutual meeting time is the only factor in the world that matters. It places their own plans on a pedestal above all other factors that might influence the plans of others.
  - nitrogen 9y ago
    Not that many will be reading this thread at this point, but for the record I'll add that punctuality is a means to an end, not an end in itself. Those who obsess over punctuality are inconsiderate, at best, of every other means, end, demand, and desire.
Angostura 9y ago
I’ll be certain to mention their arrogance the next time I turn up somewhere late. Thank you for letting me see what arseholes they are.

HaoZeke 9y ago

This is why older people don't have friends. When you're younger you just wait for the other person.

firmgently 9y ago
I don't see why it would have to correlate with age. When I was younger I used to get annoyed at late people more easily. As the years have passed I've developed my philosophy. I still think it's often a sign of selfishness but we all have our flaws. Early on in any relationship I learn which style of timekeeping a person has. You get the people who will warn in advance and apologise profusely if they are going to be 2 minutes late, then at the other end of the scale you have the people who say "I'm just around the corner I'll be there in 5 minutes" and you know they might turn up some time that day/night, if they're having a particularly switched-on day. Once I have my expectations set correctly I don't get annoyed. It does mean that any arrangement with the 'very late' style of friends always has a status of 'tentative'. And I make it clear to them that I may be doing something else by the time they arrive and that they'd better be able to handle that as it's a cost of their style of being. I've never known a late person to have any problem with that arrangement, they generally seem to quite like it as then they know they can do their thing and not worry about putting me out. I've not read the linked article but I've been pretty constant with my level of making new friends throughout my adult life (am in my forties now). I've moved around a bit and lived in a few different towns/cities, had a few career paths, maybe that's relevant. I think some people narrow their worldview as they get older and perhaps this makes them more choosy about who is 'worth it'. I've always been a weirdo/outlier. I'm fine with loads of people around me and making parties etc., but also more than happy in my own company. I noticed quite early in life that I could be accepted in most social groups and drift between them and developed a distaste for cliques and the negative behaviour they encourage (exclusivity, "our love for each other is based on our hatred of everyone else" etc).

Legogris 9y ago

A 30 minute buffer can easily be eaten up by looking for my keys that I KNOW I JUST HAD YESTERDAY WHAT THE HELL, and then having to go back to my apartment after leaving because I forgot my wallet. I have missed flights, and the reason I usually don't is because I plan to arrive at the airport ~3h before departure. Believe me, it's making me way more miserable than the person I'm stressing to meet. It's neither disrespect nor prioritization.

verinus 9y ago
This is why people get organized- put in the keys always in the same spot so you do not have to bother thinking about where your keys are. Or Check if they have the fundamentals on your person before leaving- wallet, phone, keys...