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> I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actu

> I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actual Nazis and Ukrainian militias who mass murdered Jews. > if the best criticism of The Black Book is The best criticism is that it was discredited and disowned even by its own authors.

Fins 9y ago
So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...
- Tech-Noir 9y ago
  > So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?
  - Fins 9y ago
    Dear Lord! What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!!Maybe you should not be the one talking about useful idiots. Really, Ukrainians (and Jews) killed by MGB troops operating under OUN-UPA flag have nothing to do with Germans either. And how about the famine that this thread is about? How many Russians could have possibly cooperated with Germans 20 years before the war even started? I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. And how good Jews had it there. You could try asking Solomon Mikhoels [1]. Oh, wait, Stalin had him killed. Maybe check with some prominent Soviet Jewish doctors? Oh, they got wrapped up in the Doctor's Plot [2] and barely survived (some of them, anyway) because Stalin croaked before Jews, as was the plan, could have been loaded in railroad cars (for their own protection against the just wrath of the Soviet people, of course) and sent to camps in Siberia. Just because Soviets didn't use poison gas on Jews (and those Russian peasants who did get gassed in the Tambov rebellion [3] obviously did deserve it, after all some of them may not have liked Jews and would have cooperated with Germans, have they lived another 20 years!) does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis. They just slaughtered people (far more people than Nazis ever managed) by a different criteria. Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. Does show where antisemites come from, though. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%931922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%93... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion
    - Tech-Noir 9y ago
      > What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!! You didn't mention "Kazakh famine of 1919", you mentioned "Russians, Ukrainians and Kazakhs" in reply to my posts about Nazis being classed as victims by the The Black Book Of Communism. > I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. You were a Soviet citizen in 1919? Because that's the only way you know any better than I do. What part of the USSR are you from anyway? You seem quite cagey about it, despite thinking being born in some corner of the largest state on Earth 27+ years ago somehow wins you an argument by default. > And how good Jews had it there. So you want to make treatment of Jews part of your Naziism is better than Communism argument too? > does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis Then, for the second time of asking, explain how your life would have been improved by your country being under Nazi occupation rather than living under Communism. > Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else Feel free to quote anything I've written that's even remotely close to the ballpark of anything even approaching that. > isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. This from someone who could be doing literally anything on the internet, and chooses to spend time minimizing the number of people killed by the Nazis - direct quote from you: "[the Nazis] killed far fewer people" - which is exactly what Holocaust deniers do. > Does show where antisemites come from, though. You should probably clarify this statement, because it sounds like you're justifying people becoming anti-Semites. Are you?

Fins 9y ago

So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...

Tech-Noir 9y ago
> So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?
- Fins 9y ago
  Dear Lord! What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!!Maybe you should not be the one talking about useful idiots. Really, Ukrainians (and Jews) killed by MGB troops operating under OUN-UPA flag have nothing to do with Germans either. And how about the famine that this thread is about? How many Russians could have possibly cooperated with Germans 20 years before the war even started? I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. And how good Jews had it there. You could try asking Solomon Mikhoels [1]. Oh, wait, Stalin had him killed. Maybe check with some prominent Soviet Jewish doctors? Oh, they got wrapped up in the Doctor's Plot [2] and barely survived (some of them, anyway) because Stalin croaked before Jews, as was the plan, could have been loaded in railroad cars (for their own protection against the just wrath of the Soviet people, of course) and sent to camps in Siberia. Just because Soviets didn't use poison gas on Jews (and those Russian peasants who did get gassed in the Tambov rebellion [3] obviously did deserve it, after all some of them may not have liked Jews and would have cooperated with Germans, have they lived another 20 years!) does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis. They just slaughtered people (far more people than Nazis ever managed) by a different criteria. Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. Does show where antisemites come from, though. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%931922 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kazakh_famine_of_1919%E2%80%93... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Mikhoels [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctors%27_plot [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tambov_Rebellion
  - Tech-Noir 9y ago
    > What does Kazakh famine of 1919 [0] has to do with Germans??!! You didn't mention "Kazakh famine of 1919", you mentioned "Russians, Ukrainians and Kazakhs" in reply to my posts about Nazis being classed as victims by the The Black Book Of Communism. > I guess, not being a former Soviet citizen you have no idea what it was. You were a Soviet citizen in 1919? Because that's the only way you know any better than I do. What part of the USSR are you from anyway? You seem quite cagey about it, despite thinking being born in some corner of the largest state on Earth 27+ years ago somehow wins you an argument by default. > And how good Jews had it there. So you want to make treatment of Jews part of your Naziism is better than Communism argument too? > does not, by any stretch of imagination mean that communists were an iota better than Nazis Then, for the second time of asking, explain how your life would have been improved by your country being under Nazi occupation rather than living under Communism. > Your insistence on excusing mass murder because some of those murdered might have, at some point in the future, possibly, had they survived, killed someone else Feel free to quote anything I've written that's even remotely close to the ballpark of anything even approaching that. > isn't much different from what Holocaust deniers do. This from someone who could be doing literally anything on the internet, and chooses to spend time minimizing the number of people killed by the Nazis - direct quote from you: "[the Nazis] killed far fewer people" - which is exactly what Holocaust deniers do. > Does show where antisemites come from, though. You should probably clarify this statement, because it sounds like you're justifying people becoming anti-Semites. Are you?