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"Japan also has a 99 percent conviction rate..." How it took 7 paragraphs to get to that, I have no idea.

by Towle_ 16y ago

ugh 16y ago
That’s not automatically a bad number. Japan has a ridiculously low incarceration rate (63 per 100,000 compared to 748 in the US and 96 in France) so it doesn’t seem as though they randomly pull people from the street and then convict them with near certainty. They might throw out many cases with less than airtight evidence.
- cdavid 16y ago
  Actually, that's not exactly true. The japanese system relies heavily on confession, and without the presence of lawyers. They are sometimes denied food, toilet usage, etc... for days. Several people sentenced to death following confession were acquited in the 80ies... Also, the way death row works in Japan is particularly horrible: as in the US, people may stay there decades before being killed, but they only know it the day they are killed, and their family is only notified after their death. I would also note that the incarceration rate is not ridiculously low - if you look at developed countries, the outlier are the US, not Japan. I suspect the French figure to be typical in western Europe, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration
  - ugh 16y ago
    That indeed seems to be horrible. I just wanted to suggest that the number alone is not all that meaningful. (My comment was a bit too assertive for that purpose. I slightly reworded it.) You are certainly right about the US being the outlier with respect to incarceration rates, but even compared to Europe Japan’s numbers are low.
    - pjscott 16y ago
      Japan also has low crime rates compared to Europe and the US, so their lower incarceration rate doesn't necessarily mean much.
- Towle_ 16y ago
  All fair points, and you could make many, many more. So could the other side. In fact, that would make for a great article, because people like you and me care deeply about whether innocent people are being killed arbitrarily. A fair, factual debate about how often that likely occurs would make for a great read. Wait a second, isn't that what we just read? No, no it's not. If it were, the text I quoted could've been the title because, whether or not you're right, 99% is NINETY-NINE PERCENT and it deserves a goddamn explanation. That much we can agree on. No, we didn't just read an article about the death penalty. We just read an article about the best way to abolish it. That article takes as a given that the death penalty is immoral and that it should be abolished regardless of the opinions of the nation's citizens. Whether you personally agree or disagree with those presumptions is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because, as you're well aware, plenty of people don't and you don't just write them off as stupid or unimportant. They're citizens just like you are. To write the article we just read is to believe that their opinions should be ignored. The New York Times is telling you and me, "Anyone who thinks the death penalty is in any way acceptable is a hick or a redneck or a retard-- you know, the same people who DON'T read The New York Times. Not YOU though. YOUR opinion matters. We can tell because YOU read The New York Times. YOU think it's immoral, which is why YOU want to read an article about how to get it the hell out of here, opposition be damned. Isn't that right?" Even Fox Fucking News doesn't report on, say, the gay marriage debate in this manner. They may be heavily biased to one side, but at least they concede there's a debate to be had.
  - ugh 16y ago
    Other side? I didn’t write that comment because I’m on any particular side. I’m actually all for abolishing the death penalty but that doesn’t really matter. I think this is fine article about a Japanise minister’s campaign to abolish the death penalty, padded with some background info.
    - Towle_ 16y ago
      None of that was about you, personally. I was explaining the importance of WHY the quoted section took 7 paragraphs to get to, not whether it matters. You and I aren't on different sides, no matter what your opinions. You and I are on the same side. The New York Times is on the other.
drinian 16y ago
This article, "No need to know the law, but you must obey it," is an excellent introduction to the topic. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20100629zg.html http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20100629zg.html
- cdavid 16y ago
  The law (and law enforcement) system is very hard to understand for a foreigner used to western systems - maybe one of the most weird thing. One of thee most surprising thing is how little respect law enforcement people get, and their total lack of authority whatsoever. The first time I was arrested with my gf (who is Japanese), I was truly shocked to see here talking back to the policeman, especially since she was clearly in the wrong (not stopping at a stop sign by car). I told here later that it was the most sure way to spend some time unpleasant time at least for the night in France (or worse in the US), and plead her to never ever do that. I also saw once a guy in plain day, in the center of Osaka, circumventing a policeman who asked him to stop, and running away by car. I think this is linked to the most defining aspect of Japanese society: the perpetual social obligations to each other, and the lack of individuality. My interpretation is that law in Japan is mostly "unused", because people restrain themselves so much in general for every aspect of everyday life. As such people whose job is to force this on people besides social conventions are not well regarded. I would love to get a better understanding of this aspect of Japanese society. Concerning low rate of crimes, I think this is partly an illusion. True, issues related to physical aggression are much less likely than in any other country I know, and the country is very safe. But there is also a covering of things which are considered as crimes in western countries. Things such as rape, sexual harassment are often covered up, I believe - certainly, I have seen more inappropriate behavior in Japan in 6 years than all my life otherwise. Corruption is also prevalent, the comparison of number of white collar crimes with other countries would be interesting, for example. Finally, many activities related to child pornography is disturbingly tolerated in Japan.

"Japan also has a 99 percent conviction rate..." How it took 7 paragraphs to get to that, I have no idea.

by Towle_ 16y ago

"Japan also has a 99 percent conviction rate..." How it took 7 paragraphs to get to that, I have no idea.

ugh 16y ago

That’s not automatically a bad number. Japan has a ridiculously low incarceration rate (63 per 100,000 compared to 748 in the US and 96 in France) so it doesn’t seem as though they randomly pull people from the street and then convict them with near certainty. They might throw out many cases with less than airtight evidence.

cdavid 16y ago
Actually, that's not exactly true. The japanese system relies heavily on confession, and without the presence of lawyers. They are sometimes denied food, toilet usage, etc... for days. Several people sentenced to death following confession were acquited in the 80ies... Also, the way death row works in Japan is particularly horrible: as in the US, people may stay there decades before being killed, but they only know it the day they are killed, and their family is only notified after their death. I would also note that the incarceration rate is not ridiculously low - if you look at developed countries, the outlier are the US, not Japan. I suspect the French figure to be typical in western Europe, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarceration
- ugh 16y ago
  That indeed seems to be horrible. I just wanted to suggest that the number alone is not all that meaningful. (My comment was a bit too assertive for that purpose. I slightly reworded it.) You are certainly right about the US being the outlier with respect to incarceration rates, but even compared to Europe Japan’s numbers are low.
  - pjscott 16y ago
    Japan also has low crime rates compared to Europe and the US, so their lower incarceration rate doesn't necessarily mean much.
Towle_ 16y ago
All fair points, and you could make many, many more. So could the other side. In fact, that would make for a great article, because people like you and me care deeply about whether innocent people are being killed arbitrarily. A fair, factual debate about how often that likely occurs would make for a great read. Wait a second, isn't that what we just read? No, no it's not. If it were, the text I quoted could've been the title because, whether or not you're right, 99% is NINETY-NINE PERCENT and it deserves a goddamn explanation. That much we can agree on. No, we didn't just read an article about the death penalty. We just read an article about the best way to abolish it. That article takes as a given that the death penalty is immoral and that it should be abolished regardless of the opinions of the nation's citizens. Whether you personally agree or disagree with those presumptions is irrelevant. It's irrelevant because, as you're well aware, plenty of people don't and you don't just write them off as stupid or unimportant. They're citizens just like you are. To write the article we just read is to believe that their opinions should be ignored. The New York Times is telling you and me, "Anyone who thinks the death penalty is in any way acceptable is a hick or a redneck or a retard-- you know, the same people who DON'T read The New York Times. Not YOU though. YOUR opinion matters. We can tell because YOU read The New York Times. YOU think it's immoral, which is why YOU want to read an article about how to get it the hell out of here, opposition be damned. Isn't that right?" Even Fox Fucking News doesn't report on, say, the gay marriage debate in this manner. They may be heavily biased to one side, but at least they concede there's a debate to be had.
- ugh 16y ago
  Other side? I didn’t write that comment because I’m on any particular side. I’m actually all for abolishing the death penalty but that doesn’t really matter. I think this is fine article about a Japanise minister’s campaign to abolish the death penalty, padded with some background info.
  - Towle_ 16y ago
    None of that was about you, personally. I was explaining the importance of WHY the quoted section took 7 paragraphs to get to, not whether it matters. You and I aren't on different sides, no matter what your opinions. You and I are on the same side. The New York Times is on the other.

drinian 16y ago

This article, "No need to know the law, but you must obey it," is an excellent introduction to the topic. http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20100629zg.html http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20100629zg.html

cdavid 16y ago
The law (and law enforcement) system is very hard to understand for a foreigner used to western systems - maybe one of the most weird thing. One of thee most surprising thing is how little respect law enforcement people get, and their total lack of authority whatsoever. The first time I was arrested with my gf (who is Japanese), I was truly shocked to see here talking back to the policeman, especially since she was clearly in the wrong (not stopping at a stop sign by car). I told here later that it was the most sure way to spend some time unpleasant time at least for the night in France (or worse in the US), and plead her to never ever do that. I also saw once a guy in plain day, in the center of Osaka, circumventing a policeman who asked him to stop, and running away by car. I think this is linked to the most defining aspect of Japanese society: the perpetual social obligations to each other, and the lack of individuality. My interpretation is that law in Japan is mostly "unused", because people restrain themselves so much in general for every aspect of everyday life. As such people whose job is to force this on people besides social conventions are not well regarded. I would love to get a better understanding of this aspect of Japanese society. Concerning low rate of crimes, I think this is partly an illusion. True, issues related to physical aggression are much less likely than in any other country I know, and the country is very safe. But there is also a covering of things which are considered as crimes in western countries. Things such as rape, sexual harassment are often covered up, I believe - certainly, I have seen more inappropriate behavior in Japan in 6 years than all my life otherwise. Corruption is also prevalent, the comparison of number of white collar crimes with other countries would be interesting, for example. Finally, many activities related to child pornography is disturbingly tolerated in Japan.