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Who do you think is the authority on this? The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same c

by bald 9y ago

Who do you think is the authority on this? The German KBA (Kraftfahrtbundesamt, similar to the DOT in the USA) classifies the Model S as Oberklasse, the same class like BMW 7 series and Mercedes S class. Coming from a BMW 7 series and now driving a Model S myself, I sure have the feeling that the Model S carries a prestige comparable or higher to that of the 7er.

TomMarius 9y ago
This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is. The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.
- cptskippy 9y ago
  I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs. The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria. If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".
cptskippy 9y ago
The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive. If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.
- jjeaff 9y ago
  Hmm, really? What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium. On the outside I think they look comparably luxurious to a Mercedes a class of BMW 7. The inside amenities is where they fall short in my opinion.
  - Tomte 9y ago
    Maybe nobody will believe me, but the first time I saw a Tesla Model S in person was a few months ago, when it stopped in front of me at a traffic light. I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I hadn't seen before. My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is this?". Really. I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so much about Tesla. My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla. Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into the market and create a new niche.
    - cptskippy 9y ago
      This thread has got me thinking about what luxury looks like and I think brand prestige plays a lot in our perceptions. When we think Bentley, Audi, BMW or Mercedes we think high end luxury because of their history and lineage. Those brands also use very unique design language. BMW has it's characteristic 4 globe headlamps, Audi with it's minimalist aesthetic, etc. We've associated those designs with luxury. When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you immediately think "oh garbage". When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me. Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.
hashmal 9y ago
Tesla's own positioning has authority on the subject: their communication says "premium" cars. That's completely different than luxury. Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).

by bald 9y ago

TomMarius 9y ago

This categorization is based on the size of the vehicle, not its target market. If Dacia made a similarly sized lowcost vehicle, it would be in the same category but it'd definitely not be as luxury as Mercedes is. The quality of the vehicle (materials, UX, customer service and so on) doesn't match up with most recent BMW 7 and Mercedes S Klasse. It's on par with older ones, but not with the current ones.

cptskippy 9y ago
I would argue that it's more a factor of cost than size. Each segment contains vehicles of a variety of sizes, in the Oberklasse you have everything from 2 door supercar up to large SUVs. The guidelines for the Fahrzeugsegment by the Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt are really kind of crap. If you gave different people the Abgrenzungskriterien to classify all the cars, you'd end up with different results unless because there's an unspoken weight to the criteria. If I had to hazard a guess, probably 90% of the weight is on base price and another 9% is on "is this vehicle expensive because it's a Camper or Work Truck".

cptskippy 9y ago

The Kraftfahrt-Bundesamt says it takes into account a number of Abgrenzungskriterien including size, weight, performance, seating capacity, # of doors; however it has no standard formula for assigning Models to a Fahrzeugsegment. The only criteria used that truly differentiates the segments is price. If you take a look at the vehicles included in the Oberklasse segment you quickly see a pattern, they're all really expensive. If you asked a 5 year old to play "which one of these is not like they other" they'd quickly zero in on the Tesla models very quickly because they don't look like luxury vehicles. That's not to say that the Tesla models aren't very nice cars, they're just not opulent. The Tesla models cost as much as they do because of the technology under the covers. The other cars in the Oberklasse segment aren't technologically expensive, they're pretty bog standard high performance vehicles slathered in expensive and exotic materials and refinements.

jjeaff 9y ago
Hmm, really? What is it about a Tesla that doesn't look as premium. On the outside I think they look comparably luxurious to a Mercedes a class of BMW 7. The inside amenities is where they fall short in my opinion.
- Tomte 9y ago
  Maybe nobody will believe me, but the first time I saw a Tesla Model S in person was a few months ago, when it stopped in front of me at a traffic light. I couldn't read the word "Tesla" and only saw an unfamiliar car with a logo I hadn't seen before. My thoughts were "what strange Chinese crap trying to look like a big car is this?". Really. I know, sounds stupid. I was able to read "Tesla" shortly thereafter and certainly felt stupid, not recognizing the car or the logo after reading so much about Tesla. My opinion has slightly changed, in the meantime, I don't see them anymore and think of "cheap" and "wannabe", but I suspect that my initial feeling was the true one and I'm now subconsciously factoring in that I know it is a Tesla. Still, they badly need an experienced "conventional" designer if they see themselves as one of the luxury Mercedes or BMW cars. But I suspect they don't see themselves like that and actively try to force a new design language into the market and create a new niche.
  - cptskippy 9y ago
    This thread has got me thinking about what luxury looks like and I think brand prestige plays a lot in our perceptions. When we think Bentley, Audi, BMW or Mercedes we think high end luxury because of their history and lineage. Those brands also use very unique design language. BMW has it's characteristic 4 globe headlamps, Audi with it's minimalist aesthetic, etc. We've associated those designs with luxury. When you first see the Hyundai Genesis line of cars you think it's some sort of high end fine European luxury vehicle because they copied the design language of luxury brands. However when you realize they're Hyundais you immediately think "oh garbage". When Toyota first starting making the Lexus line they look like glossy versions of their Toyota counterparts and it took many years for them to develop a distinctive design aesthetic. Honda had similar issues with the Acura line in the US and I would argue they still do because the Acura line doesn't exist in other markets so those vehicles are branded as Honda. The Honda Odyssey has always looked more like an Acura to me. Tesla to their credit didn't try to cash in the prestige of another brand by copying their design language. Tesla's design language is a blank slate in our mind so when we see it we don't know what to expect. We try to associate it with what we know, in this case you thought Chinese crap.

hashmal 9y ago

Tesla's own positioning has authority on the subject: their communication says "premium" cars. That's completely different than luxury. Of course, that doesn't mean you are not right to feel prestige with a Tesla, and that's something important with luxury in general: what's luxury to someone can be absolute garbage to someone else. And quite often, premium products can be of higher quality than luxury products (luxury is often tied to quality, but most importantly brand history, hand-crafted parts, access to some social status, etc).