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From the link above: "According to the official Bolshevik position, which is still maintained by some modern Marxists, the rich peasants (kulaks) withheld thei

by Fins 9y ago

From the link above: "According to the official Bolshevik position, which is still maintained by some modern Marxists, the rich peasants (kulaks) withheld their surplus grain to preserve their lives;[2] statistics indicate that most of the grain and the other food supplies passed through the black market.[3][4][5] The Bolsheviks believed peasants were actively trying to undermine the war effort. The Black Book of Communism asserts that Lenin ordered the seizure of the food peasants had grown for their own subsistence and their seed grain in retaliation for this "sabotage", leading to widespread peasant revolts.[6] In 1920, Lenin ordered increased emphasis on food requisitioning from the peasantry." Still not seeing any fringe sources.

Tech-Noir 9y ago
And I'm still not seeing any claim of "forced famine". Did you forget to edit the page before copying it? All your quote says is that some people claim one side was to blame and some people claim another side was to blame. More interesting is that you don't consider to be a "fringe source" the far-right bible The Black Book of Communism - a publication discredited and disowned even by its main authors - which in order to fabricate a high enough death count to paint the Nazis as not so bad after all and the Holocaust as nothing special, classifies as victims the likes of Nazi/SS military personnel and anti-Semitic Ukrainian nationalist militias who murdered thousands of Jews in countless pogroms.
- Fins 9y ago
  Oh, I am sorry. I did not realize that you are defending communists. I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... And seriously, if the best criticism of The Black Book is that it compares Nazis and communists, I do not see what the problem is... other than that communists are quite a bit worse. Criticism of "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union" is laughable on its face.
  - Tech-Noir 9y ago
    > I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actual Nazis and Ukrainian militias who mass murdered Jews. > if the best criticism of The Black Book is The best criticism is that it was discredited and disowned even by its own authors.
    - Fins 9y ago
      So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...
      - Tech-Noir 9y ago
        > So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?

by Fins 9y ago

Tech-Noir 9y ago

And I'm still not seeing any claim of "forced famine". Did you forget to edit the page before copying it? All your quote says is that some people claim one side was to blame and some people claim another side was to blame. More interesting is that you don't consider to be a "fringe source" the far-right bible The Black Book of Communism - a publication discredited and disowned even by its main authors - which in order to fabricate a high enough death count to paint the Nazis as not so bad after all and the Holocaust as nothing special, classifies as victims the likes of Nazi/SS military personnel and anti-Semitic Ukrainian nationalist militias who murdered thousands of Jews in countless pogroms.

Fins 9y ago
Oh, I am sorry. I did not realize that you are defending communists. I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... And seriously, if the best criticism of The Black Book is that it compares Nazis and communists, I do not see what the problem is... other than that communists are quite a bit worse. Criticism of "Death camps did not exist in the Soviet Union" is laughable on its face.
- Tech-Noir 9y ago
  > I guess killing more people than Nazis is OK, as long as they were the wrong kind of people... Good luck finding sympathy, outside neo-Nazi circles, for actual Nazis and Ukrainian militias who mass murdered Jews. > if the best criticism of The Black Book is The best criticism is that it was discredited and disowned even by its own authors.
  - Fins 9y ago
    So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Only Jews? That's not much different from making excuses for Nazis. Except, of course, that they had killed far fewer people. Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, but even the alleged discrediting by its authors boils down to quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million (a suspicious number indeed), or 93 million, or maybe only 67 million. Other criticism is just pathetic bleatinbgs from fellow travellers who have as much credibility on crimes of communists as David Irving has on the Holocaust. As a little amusing fact, Roland Freisler was one of those people taking last grain away from Russian peasants. But then the revolving door betweem commies and nazis was wide open back then https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%91%D1%80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BA%D0%B0#%D0%98%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B5%D1%81%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B5_%D1%84%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%82%D1%8B https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%80...
    - Tech-Noir 9y ago
      > So I guess neither Russians, nor Ukrainians, nor Kazakhs, who probably have not even heard about Jews' existence, nor other millions of people slaughtered by communists count. Anti-Semitic Ukrainian mass murderers don't count, no. Nor do Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs or any other useful idiots (that the Nazis considered untermenschen) who signed up to help Germany carry out the Final Solution and Generalplan Ost (until it was their turn). Perhaps you should consider the possibility that if the vast majority of people, communist or not, disagree with your belief that Nazi Germany wasn't as bad as the USSR, then you might be wrong. As a former citizen of the USSR, as you seem to claim in another post, how much better do you seriously imagine your life would have been, assuming you even made it to conception, under Nazi rule? > Exact numbers in the Black Book might be inaccurate -- unlike Germans, Soviets did not keep precise accouinting, So because it's not possible to know the true number it's okay to just make one (or several) up and act like it's historical fact? > quibbling over whether it was the exact 100 million or 93 million, or maybe only 67 If a difference of 33 million doesn't matter, and is mere quibbling, what's the motivation for even bothering to come up with a number at all? Answer: to make the argument that the Nazis and the Holocaust weren't uniquely bad. What kind of person, do you think, would bother making the effort to do that?