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Kind of an interesting thought from the article: " If you love Google, you should hope the government sues it for antitrust offenses — and you should hope it h

Kind of an interesting thought from the article: " If you love Google, you should hope the government sues it for antitrust offenses — and you should hope it happens soon, because who knows what wondrous new creations are waiting patiently in the wings."

ocdtrekkie 9y ago
That's the crazy thing: Antitrust is the best path for everyone who isn't a billionaire corporation. Because not only will those of us who don't want to deal with them have options, but the former trust will be forced to compete again on merit, which means they'll have to step up their game. A lot of Google products coast by on their monopoly status alone, but if they get broken up or even just their behavior heavily restricted, they're going to have to get back to doing what originally made them great: Making the best web apps and services, like they used to.
- wbl 9y ago
  The competition is a click away. If you can make a better webmail or calendar people will use it.
  - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
    Better webmail and calendars exist (I use one of them), but because of Google's control of the entire market, two thirds of users are still on Gmail. That's the monopoly effect: Better products don't win out when one company controls the playing field. And now Google's out to introduce their own proprietary email format to hurt other parties even more.
    - ryandrake 9y ago
      Interesting. Their control of the market didn't seem to stop me from moving all of my Email out of Gmail recently. I just went and did it. I must have missed that screen where they say, "You can no longer continue exporting your E-mail. We control the playing field, so other services cannot win out!"
      - justaguyhere 9y ago
        You are part of a tiny group of people that has the knowledge and motivation to do it, much of the population couldn't/wouldn't. Maybe 20 years from now, this would be different with majority of the people being tech savvy (like the majority of people who can drive today). Of course one can argue that it is the consumers' fault for not looking for better options...
        jyrkesh 9y ago
        Yeah, I think you addressed your own concern there. Why would a consumer who doesn't know how to export mail need something better than Gmail? I'm a power user, and I don't need anything but Gmail, so I can't fathom that there's some unserved email opportunity that consumers would love fulfilled if only they knew about Gmail competitors.
        dmitrygr 9y ago
        The stupidity of "the common user" you just referred to is not Google's fault or responsibility.
        justaguyhere 9y ago
        Maybe so, but the common user is what most users are and Google needs them to make their big money.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
    - blfr 9y ago
      I haven't found a better webmail or calendar than Google's, especially self-hosted. Could you reveal what service you're using?
      - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        I'm using FastMail, which isn't selfhosted. I have some high hopes for Mailpile though. FastMail's working on an open source standard called JMAP, which has seen some interest from a couple of open source mail projects, and would move labels from being a Gmail-proprietary thing to something openly supported and standardized. Sandstorm.io, where I host my documents, just stated a goal to bring their email support up to par: https://sandstorm.io/news/2018-02-19-http-rewrite-and-more https://sandstorm.io/news/2018-02-19-http-rewrite-and-more Email-based startups and open source projects don't seem to move very fast though, likely because due to the Gmail monopoly, they don't get a lot of support.
        hknd 9y ago
        So neither of those supports multi-inboxes, labels based on complex filters or the ability to 'snooze' emails. Also, they don't automatically extract information from a mail into my calendar (e.g. event/flight/...). Can't see in which sense those are "better" than free gmail.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        You can definitely automatically filter email into different folders as it comes in, and they support complex rules. You are specifically asking for weird nonstandard behaviors which cause more problems than they fix. (For example, when I used Gmail, the "multiple inboxes" feature didn't work well with third party mail apps, because it isn't really multiple inboxes, it's just Gmail sorting the inbox on the fly. I ended up disabling them and adding custom rules into Gmail to sort them into proper folders.) As the case is FastMail does actually have that feature, I just prefer to use actual rules and folders. ;) Snooze is, from my understanding, an Inbox feature, not a Gmail feature, and I still fail to see any value. (But maybe as a non-Inbox user I just don't know?) You have read, unread, and pinned/starred functionality, how and why one would hide one's emails from oneself until a later point, I have no idea. Extracting data from emails automatically is an antifeature, since it's privacy-invasive. I specifically pay FastMail for it not to do things like that to my mail! But on the opposite end: * FastMail's interface is faster and cleaner than Gmail's and contains no advertising. * FastMail's email/calendar service is fully standards compliant, unlike the number of hacks required to interoperate with Gmail's proprietary nonsense. Just yesterday I was reading about this: http://blog.fruux.com/2014/10/16/google-carddav/ http://blog.fruux.com/2014/10/16/google-carddav/ * FastMail gives me incredibly fine-grained control over how my mail is handled, including it's spam filtering. * When I have an issue with FastMail, I can ask for help, and a real human (and one random time, literally the CEO) will respond, and assist me with my problem. ---- FWIW, Outlook.com has a pretty nice email client too, and their account management is a lot more mature than Google's (I can change my Microsoft account's email address, something Google remains incapable of to this day, somehow). Gmail has been around for over a decade, it's the least common denominator now, most email services are at least as good as Gmail.
    - pythonaut_16 9y ago
      I'd like to hear what better webmail and calendar option you have, because I'm certainly not using Gmail because Google controls the market. So far Gmail is by far the best email client/service that I've found.
    - Vinnl 9y ago
      A bit off-topic, but what proper calendar alternatives exist? Although I don't really believe any competition for email exists (though I'd love to be proven wrong with an alternative that can do snoozing), I can't really believe that no such alternative for calendar exists.
    - hknd 9y ago
      So, what are those better webmailers?
  - dictum 9y ago
    It's a lot harder to offer your service for free (80% of "better" here) when you don't run a highly vertically integrated and dominant advertising system.
    - blfr 9y ago
      What better paid options are there than G Suite?
      - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        Which options aren't better than G Suite? Many of Google's antiprivacy features are enabled even if you're paying for their product, and in addition to that, you get an outdated version of Google services that can take months or years before Google supports. Almost everything Google launches won't work with GApps accounts until some point in the future. I have regularly seen people moving from Google Apps to personal Gmail accounts just because the integration with other Google services is so bad. It's understandable Google wants it's business customers to have well-tested robust software, but more often then not, the support cycle can leave them excluded for years, with no way to opt in.
        blfr 9y ago
        Which options aren't better than G Suite? Everything else I've tried. Office 365 isn't better. What I could stitch together with OwnCloud wasn't better. All the important Google tools are in the G Suite. There's Gmail, Calendar, Keep, Photos, and the whole web office suite: Drive, Docs, Sheets. It also works and syncs with Android.
  - pzh 9y ago
    Was that meant to be sarcastic? (Serious question; because the article derides that exact statement.)
  - Sylos 9y ago
    No, they won't. There's people who don't even know that there's something else than GMail. They can't do one click and be at a competitor's site, if they don't know about it. And it doesn't help that their only way of finding out about competitors is through google.com.
fancyfacebook 9y ago
These bizarre roundabout ways the NYT finds to worship corporations are starting to get creepy. Calling their work wondrous and speaking directly to people who "love" Google is just absurd. Just stop, don't worship an organization.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Or maybe you're just giving undue importance to those words. One may "love" Google in the same way one "loves" quesadillas, or chrome rims.
- greglindahl 9y ago
  Google has one of the strongest brands in the world. NYT's language is not that different from that used by ordinary people.
qubex 9y ago
That's the dilemma inherent in innovating a market you are an indisputed leader in: why rock the boat, and reset all your incumbent advantages to zero, when you can just sit pretty with what you've got? Kodak invented digital photography way back in the 1970s, patented it, and did nothing with it. It was only when the patents expired that digital cameras came to the fore (likely also because of intervening decades’ worth of technological improvement), and it killed them off. Until the beginning of the 20th Century the Royal Navy had an unassailable advantage in terms of ships and then Admiral Fisher designed the HMS Dreadnought which instantly obsoleted everything afloat and dialled back the UK's advantage to a single ship, and the Germans instantly took advantage of it and started building their own new dreadnoughts. This keeps happening.

ocdtrekkie 9y ago

That's the crazy thing: Antitrust is the best path for everyone who isn't a billionaire corporation. Because not only will those of us who don't want to deal with them have options, but the former trust will be forced to compete again on merit, which means they'll have to step up their game. A lot of Google products coast by on their monopoly status alone, but if they get broken up or even just their behavior heavily restricted, they're going to have to get back to doing what originally made them great: Making the best web apps and services, like they used to.

wbl 9y ago
The competition is a click away. If you can make a better webmail or calendar people will use it.
- ocdtrekkie 9y ago
  Better webmail and calendars exist (I use one of them), but because of Google's control of the entire market, two thirds of users are still on Gmail. That's the monopoly effect: Better products don't win out when one company controls the playing field. And now Google's out to introduce their own proprietary email format to hurt other parties even more.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    Interesting. Their control of the market didn't seem to stop me from moving all of my Email out of Gmail recently. I just went and did it. I must have missed that screen where they say, "You can no longer continue exporting your E-mail. We control the playing field, so other services cannot win out!"
    - justaguyhere 9y ago
      You are part of a tiny group of people that has the knowledge and motivation to do it, much of the population couldn't/wouldn't. Maybe 20 years from now, this would be different with majority of the people being tech savvy (like the majority of people who can drive today). Of course one can argue that it is the consumers' fault for not looking for better options...
      - jyrkesh 9y ago
        Yeah, I think you addressed your own concern there. Why would a consumer who doesn't know how to export mail need something better than Gmail? I'm a power user, and I don't need anything but Gmail, so I can't fathom that there's some unserved email opportunity that consumers would love fulfilled if only they knew about Gmail competitors.
      - dmitrygr 9y ago
        The stupidity of "the common user" you just referred to is not Google's fault or responsibility.
        justaguyhere 9y ago
        Maybe so, but the common user is what most users are and Google needs them to make their big money.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - blfr 9y ago
    I haven't found a better webmail or calendar than Google's, especially self-hosted. Could you reveal what service you're using?
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      I'm using FastMail, which isn't selfhosted. I have some high hopes for Mailpile though. FastMail's working on an open source standard called JMAP, which has seen some interest from a couple of open source mail projects, and would move labels from being a Gmail-proprietary thing to something openly supported and standardized. Sandstorm.io, where I host my documents, just stated a goal to bring their email support up to par: https://sandstorm.io/news/2018-02-19-http-rewrite-and-more https://sandstorm.io/news/2018-02-19-http-rewrite-and-more Email-based startups and open source projects don't seem to move very fast though, likely because due to the Gmail monopoly, they don't get a lot of support.
      - hknd 9y ago
        So neither of those supports multi-inboxes, labels based on complex filters or the ability to 'snooze' emails. Also, they don't automatically extract information from a mail into my calendar (e.g. event/flight/...). Can't see in which sense those are "better" than free gmail.
        ocdtrekkie 9y ago
        You can definitely automatically filter email into different folders as it comes in, and they support complex rules. You are specifically asking for weird nonstandard behaviors which cause more problems than they fix. (For example, when I used Gmail, the "multiple inboxes" feature didn't work well with third party mail apps, because it isn't really multiple inboxes, it's just Gmail sorting the inbox on the fly. I ended up disabling them and adding custom rules into Gmail to sort them into proper folders.) As the case is FastMail does actually have that feature, I just prefer to use actual rules and folders. ;) Snooze is, from my understanding, an Inbox feature, not a Gmail feature, and I still fail to see any value. (But maybe as a non-Inbox user I just don't know?) You have read, unread, and pinned/starred functionality, how and why one would hide one's emails from oneself until a later point, I have no idea. Extracting data from emails automatically is an antifeature, since it's privacy-invasive. I specifically pay FastMail for it not to do things like that to my mail! But on the opposite end: * FastMail's interface is faster and cleaner than Gmail's and contains no advertising. * FastMail's email/calendar service is fully standards compliant, unlike the number of hacks required to interoperate with Gmail's proprietary nonsense. Just yesterday I was reading about this: http://blog.fruux.com/2014/10/16/google-carddav/ http://blog.fruux.com/2014/10/16/google-carddav/ * FastMail gives me incredibly fine-grained control over how my mail is handled, including it's spam filtering. * When I have an issue with FastMail, I can ask for help, and a real human (and one random time, literally the CEO) will respond, and assist me with my problem. ---- FWIW, Outlook.com has a pretty nice email client too, and their account management is a lot more mature than Google's (I can change my Microsoft account's email address, something Google remains incapable of to this day, somehow). Gmail has been around for over a decade, it's the least common denominator now, most email services are at least as good as Gmail.
  - pythonaut_16 9y ago
    I'd like to hear what better webmail and calendar option you have, because I'm certainly not using Gmail because Google controls the market. So far Gmail is by far the best email client/service that I've found.
  - Vinnl 9y ago
    A bit off-topic, but what proper calendar alternatives exist? Although I don't really believe any competition for email exists (though I'd love to be proven wrong with an alternative that can do snoozing), I can't really believe that no such alternative for calendar exists.
  - hknd 9y ago
    So, what are those better webmailers?
- dictum 9y ago
  It's a lot harder to offer your service for free (80% of "better" here) when you don't run a highly vertically integrated and dominant advertising system.
  - blfr 9y ago
    What better paid options are there than G Suite?
    - ocdtrekkie 9y ago
      Which options aren't better than G Suite? Many of Google's antiprivacy features are enabled even if you're paying for their product, and in addition to that, you get an outdated version of Google services that can take months or years before Google supports. Almost everything Google launches won't work with GApps accounts until some point in the future. I have regularly seen people moving from Google Apps to personal Gmail accounts just because the integration with other Google services is so bad. It's understandable Google wants it's business customers to have well-tested robust software, but more often then not, the support cycle can leave them excluded for years, with no way to opt in.
      - blfr 9y ago
        Which options aren't better than G Suite? Everything else I've tried. Office 365 isn't better. What I could stitch together with OwnCloud wasn't better. All the important Google tools are in the G Suite. There's Gmail, Calendar, Keep, Photos, and the whole web office suite: Drive, Docs, Sheets. It also works and syncs with Android.
- pzh 9y ago
  Was that meant to be sarcastic? (Serious question; because the article derides that exact statement.)
- Sylos 9y ago
  No, they won't. There's people who don't even know that there's something else than GMail. They can't do one click and be at a competitor's site, if they don't know about it. And it doesn't help that their only way of finding out about competitors is through google.com.

fancyfacebook 9y ago

These bizarre roundabout ways the NYT finds to worship corporations are starting to get creepy. Calling their work wondrous and speaking directly to people who "love" Google is just absurd. Just stop, don't worship an organization.

icebraining 9y ago
Or maybe you're just giving undue importance to those words. One may "love" Google in the same way one "loves" quesadillas, or chrome rims.
greglindahl 9y ago
Google has one of the strongest brands in the world. NYT's language is not that different from that used by ordinary people.

qubex 9y ago

That's the dilemma inherent in innovating a market you are an indisputed leader in: why rock the boat, and reset all your incumbent advantages to zero, when you can just sit pretty with what you've got? Kodak invented digital photography way back in the 1970s, patented it, and did nothing with it. It was only when the patents expired that digital cameras came to the fore (likely also because of intervening decades’ worth of technological improvement), and it killed them off. Until the beginning of the 20th Century the Royal Navy had an unassailable advantage in terms of ships and then Admiral Fisher designed the HMS Dreadnought which instantly obsoleted everything afloat and dialled back the UK's advantage to a single ship, and the Germans instantly took advantage of it and started building their own new dreadnoughts. This keeps happening.