8 ms·

>In a nutshell, FlightSimLabs installed a password dumper onto ALL users’ machines, whether they were pirates or not, but then only activated the password-steal

by slivym 9y ago

>In a nutshell, FlightSimLabs installed a password dumper onto ALL users’ machines, whether they were pirates or not, but then only activated the password-stealing module when it determined that specific ‘pirate’ serial numbers had been used which matched those on FlightSimLabs’ servers. We installed spyware on your PC, but trust us, we didn't use it, we only used it on the people we didn't like... >“This method has already successfully provided information that we’re going to use in our ongoing legal battles against such criminals,” Kalamaras revealed. We're going to introduce documents into a legal process that were obtained through illegal means and hope we don't get counter-sued. It looks like once again, a gaming company has decided to stop working on making games, and start working on a convoluted game of cat and mouse with unemployed anonymous nerds. What could go wrong...

moviuro 9y ago
> We installed spyware on your PC, but trust us, we didn't use it, we only used it on the people we didn't like... And, yes, your AV is showing a false positive ;) [0] Also, piracy doesn't seem to have a huge impact (if any) on sales[1] [0] https://www.fidusinfosec.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Oct-2017.png https://www.fidusinfosec.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Oct-... , from https://www.fidusinfosec.com/fslabs-flight-simulation-labs-dropping-malware-to-combat-piracy/ https://www.fidusinfosec.com/fslabs-flight-simulation-labs-d... [1] https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/ https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-s... https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/displacement_study.pdf https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/displacement... see page 79 for games
- ravingraven 9y ago
  I'm pretty sure that piracy does have a huge impact on sales for niche addons and games like that. The client base is very very small and anything that is not absolutely perfect quality does not get sold these days (seriously, look at the quality and effort that has gone into some PMDG planes or the ixeg 737, it's astounding). Small client base plus very good quality equals, everyone must pay their share for the product to be viable. That being said, what FSLabs did is of course inexcusable.
  - slivym 9y ago
    That really doesn't change the argument surrounding piracy - the contention is that piracy doesn't displace sales. If that's true, it is literally not effecting whether everyone is paying their share. The people who pirated it simply were never going to pay for it whether they play it or not. I tend to agree with you though, if you make a game that requires incredible attention to detail, hugely time intensive modelling work, and know that the target market is a tiny niche then maybe the product is just not viable.
    - moomin 9y ago
      I think there may be some nuance to this, however. What you're saying is known to be to true at the macro level, but it may be more complicated at the micro level. For instance, it's well known that games companies aren't too fussed about games getting cracked after the launch window. The availability of a crack may not reduce your spend on video games, but it may reduce your spend on specific video games. This situation is made much much worse if your product is expensive, like this one is, and meant to make money over a long period rather than a short launch period. None of this excuses them, but I do wonder about how the piracy data actually pans out for small, expensive shops like this.
      - soundwave106 9y ago
        My impression is (based on what I've seen with music plugins and heard from plugin developers, which tend to be also produced by small shops) that piracy data does matter a fair bit if you don't do anything about it. Nonetheless, several plugin companies do seem to be able to nicely balance the ability to protect their software, while avoiding arduous copy protection methods. The method I think seems to work best is a combination "honey pot + time bomb" type method, where you provide an "easy" method for the pirates to "crack" and get on the usual sites, while also including a more difficult to reverse engineer that activates at some point later. (This kind of nudges those who kind of use piracy to "try and buy" but sometimes, er, need a bit of motivation to actually purchase the product. Even people who can afford the software and make a pretty decent living with the product have been caught with pirated plugins in interviews (https://torrentfreak.com/avicii-and-other-djs-produce-hits-using-pirated-software-150223/) https://torrentfreak.com/avicii-and-other-djs-produce-hits-u...). You definitely don't need to include malware to protect your product.
- aslkdjaslkdj 9y ago
  The EU study does not say what the pro-piracy crowd wants it to say. The study only looks out the count of games and not the dollar amount spent. A non-pirate who buys a $60 game and all the DLC and microtransactions is counted the same as a pirate who buys one $0.99 steam sale game. It does say that sales for blockbuster movies are heavily impacted by piracy.
  - croon 9y ago
    I don't see your point. I haven't pirated a game in over 15 years (basically since I started working), and I buy some games at full price and tons of games at dollar sales or humble bundles. The thing is that the ones I don't buy at full price are the ones I would never even entertain playing at full price, and statistically I rarely even play them after getting 5 of them in a bundle. What that means is that those games can have <$15 from me, or nothing. $60 was never on the table. And the games I buy at launch others won't bother with at full price. The only difference between me and the pirate in your example is that the pirate hypothetically would have bought "some" games at full price if piracy wasn't available, like I do. But that's not an assumption you can naturally make. Some people just don't care about playing games when they're new. I'm just as inclined to assume that a pirate only buying bargain games would have the same legal consumption without piracy.
    - cm2187 9y ago
      Beyond convenience and honesty, my thinking about pirated software is that in a world where malware and viruses are prevalent, the last thing I would do on earth is to execute some dodgy cracking utility or game from some random torrent website, unless it is in an airtight and up to date VM.
      - baud147258 9y ago
        I've downloaded and played dozen of pirated games, but I've been lucky enough to never have a problem. Or at least I never realized I had malware on my PC :-| For my part, it was not a lack of money, but rather ease of getting the game (when I was directly given an ISO) or because I don't want to wait for a sale, but the game still seems too expensive. I ended up buying two of them (KotOR on a sale and transistor full-price). But now I have a big enough library and I have less time to play, so it's not as appealing as before (and I also have more to lose on my computer).
- HenryBemis 9y ago
  I do understand the need to fight piracy, but breaking into my house, plundering through my stuff, taking photocopies of my files/ID/passwod/etc, is not the right way to do this (in my book). At least they were smart enough to make this AV-proof. One of my favorite lines is: "please disable your AV while XYZ application is installed". I do understand that some applications require access to files/registry keys/etc, but this means they've done a crappy work on building the thing, and they cut corners by asking us to compromise our security for their lack of due process. Random example [1]. [1]: https://www.taxslayerpro.com/kb/676/temporarily-disabling-a-firewall-or-antivirus-software https://www.taxslayerpro.com/kb/676/temporarily-disabling-a-...
  - _jcwu 9y ago
    It's pretty ironic, because that "disable AV" line is what you will find on most pirated copy readmes.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
a3n 9y ago
> We installed spyware on your PC, which makes it available to any other third party that breaks in, looks for it and uses it.
- gnode 9y ago
  If any other third party breaks in, you've already lost.
  - a3n 9y ago
    Yeah, but I'm not going to leave a ladder outside my house for use by anyone who hops the fence.
jopsen 9y ago
Forget about counter-sued, this is a criminals matter. One for which you can earn hard time. Even if you don't use the spyware. I wouldn't dare work for a company that did this. Copyright violation is merely a civil matter, cracking a serial number generator is not even copyright violation. Breaking DRM is still illegal, but that's all. I'm not even sure we've established that's it's illegal to distribute information on how to crack DRM. Certainly, not in all jurisdictions.
- SXX 9y ago
  > Breaking DRM is still illegal, but that's all. It's not illegal in all jurisdictions and even then there are cases that allow you to do it.
  - jopsen 9y ago
    true, And distribution information on how to break DRM is even less likely to be illegal.
saguro 9y ago
This sounds actually illegal? Like unauthorized access to computer systems federal crime illegal? What the fuck were they thinking.
- kbart 9y ago
  It is illegal. Actually, in most of Europe unauthorized access to computer system is a criminal offense that might lead to jailtime, while downloading pirate movie/game is a small wrongdoing that nets you fine (unless it's for profit, large scale operation). And that's access only, distributing malware and stealing personal data are two more, separate criminal offenses. So basically that's shooting a boy who has tried to steal an apple in a crowded market.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  Exactly my thought - this sounds like a criminal matter, not a civil one. It's the same reason you don't try to brick someone's computer even if you can prove with certainty that they were, say, cheating and griefing on your game's multiplayer. None of that matters, it would still be a crime. In which country are these guys based?

by slivym 9y ago

moviuro 9y ago

> We installed spyware on your PC, but trust us, we didn't use it, we only used it on the people we didn't like... And, yes, your AV is showing a false positive ;) [0] Also, piracy doesn't seem to have a huge impact (if any) on sales[1] [0] https://www.fidusinfosec.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Oct-2017.png https://www.fidusinfosec.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Oct-... , from https://www.fidusinfosec.com/fslabs-flight-simulation-labs-dropping-malware-to-combat-piracy/ https://www.fidusinfosec.com/fslabs-flight-simulation-labs-d... [1] https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-study/ https://juliareda.eu/2017/09/secret-copyright-infringement-s... https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/displacement_study.pdf https://juliareda.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/displacement... see page 79 for games

ravingraven 9y ago
I'm pretty sure that piracy does have a huge impact on sales for niche addons and games like that. The client base is very very small and anything that is not absolutely perfect quality does not get sold these days (seriously, look at the quality and effort that has gone into some PMDG planes or the ixeg 737, it's astounding). Small client base plus very good quality equals, everyone must pay their share for the product to be viable. That being said, what FSLabs did is of course inexcusable.
- slivym 9y ago
  That really doesn't change the argument surrounding piracy - the contention is that piracy doesn't displace sales. If that's true, it is literally not effecting whether everyone is paying their share. The people who pirated it simply were never going to pay for it whether they play it or not. I tend to agree with you though, if you make a game that requires incredible attention to detail, hugely time intensive modelling work, and know that the target market is a tiny niche then maybe the product is just not viable.
  - moomin 9y ago
    I think there may be some nuance to this, however. What you're saying is known to be to true at the macro level, but it may be more complicated at the micro level. For instance, it's well known that games companies aren't too fussed about games getting cracked after the launch window. The availability of a crack may not reduce your spend on video games, but it may reduce your spend on specific video games. This situation is made much much worse if your product is expensive, like this one is, and meant to make money over a long period rather than a short launch period. None of this excuses them, but I do wonder about how the piracy data actually pans out for small, expensive shops like this.
    - soundwave106 9y ago
      My impression is (based on what I've seen with music plugins and heard from plugin developers, which tend to be also produced by small shops) that piracy data does matter a fair bit if you don't do anything about it. Nonetheless, several plugin companies do seem to be able to nicely balance the ability to protect their software, while avoiding arduous copy protection methods. The method I think seems to work best is a combination "honey pot + time bomb" type method, where you provide an "easy" method for the pirates to "crack" and get on the usual sites, while also including a more difficult to reverse engineer that activates at some point later. (This kind of nudges those who kind of use piracy to "try and buy" but sometimes, er, need a bit of motivation to actually purchase the product. Even people who can afford the software and make a pretty decent living with the product have been caught with pirated plugins in interviews (https://torrentfreak.com/avicii-and-other-djs-produce-hits-using-pirated-software-150223/) https://torrentfreak.com/avicii-and-other-djs-produce-hits-u...). You definitely don't need to include malware to protect your product.
aslkdjaslkdj 9y ago
The EU study does not say what the pro-piracy crowd wants it to say. The study only looks out the count of games and not the dollar amount spent. A non-pirate who buys a $60 game and all the DLC and microtransactions is counted the same as a pirate who buys one $0.99 steam sale game. It does say that sales for blockbuster movies are heavily impacted by piracy.
- croon 9y ago
  I don't see your point. I haven't pirated a game in over 15 years (basically since I started working), and I buy some games at full price and tons of games at dollar sales or humble bundles. The thing is that the ones I don't buy at full price are the ones I would never even entertain playing at full price, and statistically I rarely even play them after getting 5 of them in a bundle. What that means is that those games can have <$15 from me, or nothing. $60 was never on the table. And the games I buy at launch others won't bother with at full price. The only difference between me and the pirate in your example is that the pirate hypothetically would have bought "some" games at full price if piracy wasn't available, like I do. But that's not an assumption you can naturally make. Some people just don't care about playing games when they're new. I'm just as inclined to assume that a pirate only buying bargain games would have the same legal consumption without piracy.
  - cm2187 9y ago
    Beyond convenience and honesty, my thinking about pirated software is that in a world where malware and viruses are prevalent, the last thing I would do on earth is to execute some dodgy cracking utility or game from some random torrent website, unless it is in an airtight and up to date VM.
    - baud147258 9y ago
      I've downloaded and played dozen of pirated games, but I've been lucky enough to never have a problem. Or at least I never realized I had malware on my PC :-| For my part, it was not a lack of money, but rather ease of getting the game (when I was directly given an ISO) or because I don't want to wait for a sale, but the game still seems too expensive. I ended up buying two of them (KotOR on a sale and transistor full-price). But now I have a big enough library and I have less time to play, so it's not as appealing as before (and I also have more to lose on my computer).
HenryBemis 9y ago
I do understand the need to fight piracy, but breaking into my house, plundering through my stuff, taking photocopies of my files/ID/passwod/etc, is not the right way to do this (in my book). At least they were smart enough to make this AV-proof. One of my favorite lines is: "please disable your AV while XYZ application is installed". I do understand that some applications require access to files/registry keys/etc, but this means they've done a crappy work on building the thing, and they cut corners by asking us to compromise our security for their lack of due process. Random example [1]. [1]: https://www.taxslayerpro.com/kb/676/temporarily-disabling-a-firewall-or-antivirus-software https://www.taxslayerpro.com/kb/676/temporarily-disabling-a-...
- _jcwu 9y ago
  It's pretty ironic, because that "disable AV" line is what you will find on most pirated copy readmes.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

a3n 9y ago

> We installed spyware on your PC, which makes it available to any other third party that breaks in, looks for it and uses it.

gnode 9y ago
If any other third party breaks in, you've already lost.
- a3n 9y ago
  Yeah, but I'm not going to leave a ladder outside my house for use by anyone who hops the fence.

jopsen 9y ago

Forget about counter-sued, this is a criminals matter. One for which you can earn hard time. Even if you don't use the spyware. I wouldn't dare work for a company that did this. Copyright violation is merely a civil matter, cracking a serial number generator is not even copyright violation. Breaking DRM is still illegal, but that's all. I'm not even sure we've established that's it's illegal to distribute information on how to crack DRM. Certainly, not in all jurisdictions.

SXX 9y ago
> Breaking DRM is still illegal, but that's all. It's not illegal in all jurisdictions and even then there are cases that allow you to do it.
- jopsen 9y ago
  true, And distribution information on how to break DRM is even less likely to be illegal.

saguro 9y ago

This sounds actually illegal? Like unauthorized access to computer systems federal crime illegal? What the fuck were they thinking.

kbart 9y ago
It is illegal. Actually, in most of Europe unauthorized access to computer system is a criminal offense that might lead to jailtime, while downloading pirate movie/game is a small wrongdoing that nets you fine (unless it's for profit, large scale operation). And that's access only, distributing malware and stealing personal data are two more, separate criminal offenses. So basically that's shooting a boy who has tried to steal an apple in a crowded market.
MaxBarraclough 9y ago
Exactly my thought - this sounds like a criminal matter, not a civil one. It's the same reason you don't try to brick someone's computer even if you can prove with certainty that they were, say, cheating and griefing on your game's multiplayer. None of that matters, it would still be a crime. In which country are these guys based?