4 ms·

>I've noted the eerie similarity between them and the bigoted people who used to racially bash me and my sister when we were children. Is an eerie similarity b

>I've noted the eerie similarity between them and the bigoted people who used to racially bash me and my sister when we were children. Is an eerie similarity between two online groups of people going to mean you abandon attempts to bring about equality of the sexes, races, classes, etc.? And if you will abandon it, what will you embrace instead? Conservative racism? I get that maybe there are similarities but there are so many more differences between the two groups that it's ridiculous that people resonate with this comment. One group is "witch-hunting" to root out people who might be bringing stereotypes or prejudice along with their thoughts and ideas, the other is trying to root out people who are of a different race / nationality without even ever hearing any words from them at all. Clearly one is better than the other, even if both have some similar flaws.

haberman 9y ago
> Is an eerie similarity between two online groups of people going to mean you abandon attempts to bring about equality of the sexes, races, classes, etc.? [...] And if you will abandon it, what will you embrace instead? Conservative racism? Can you really think of no ideology that can live between the poles of intersectional/postmodern feminism and "conservative racism?" What strange times we live in. There are a lot of articulate people out there fighting the good fight. Their vision of the world rejects extremists on both sides. Check out Helen Pluckrose, Jonathan Haidt, Steven Pinker, and anything on quillette.com, just to name a few.
- abusoufiyan 9y ago
  It's the parent comment to mine that mentioned bigoted racism, I was just showing that the false equivalence between that and "SJWs" is a bit ridiculous. Just in case you didn't read the parent comment to mine, here's the relevant part: >I've noted the eerie similarity between them and the bigoted people who used to racially bash me and my sister when we were children. If any of those people are like Steven Pinker, I'll pass. It's silly science-worshipping nonsense. Science/rationalism is good but it isn't the magical solution to all of the ills which plague humanity (as they like to make it seem).
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    The similarity is definitely there in its tribal intolerance for other views. Claiming to fight for inequality becomes a bit hollow when the way you do that is to hinder other people from speaking. There is a space in between two unfortunate extremes of people who respect other peoples right to speak no matter how vile and uncomfortable it makes them feel.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    If any of those people are like Steven Pinker, I'll pass. It's silly science-worshipping nonsense. Science/rationalism is good but it isn't the magical solution to all of the ills which plague humanity (as they like to make it seem). Does Steven Pinker think he has all the answers? A fair reading of Steven Pinker would conclude anything but. He also knows full well that science isn't magic. However, the progress of science and industry has done way more to cure the ills of humanity than any other thing. Golda Meir was born to parents in conditions where parents would give birth to approaching 10 children in the hopes that a few would survive. It's vaccines, modern medicine, and bountiful food in modern societies which have changed that rotten equation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5JYSl_ioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5JYSl_ioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk
- lambdadmitry 9y ago
  I'm not sure it's right to equate intersectional feminism with "postmodern", Marxist one. The whole point of intersectionality is that people are not defined by single identity (e.g. "white male") and each person is in fact an intersection of various identities, privileges and disadvantages. If only more "leftist" subscribed to this idea, we wouldn't hear so much about identity politics. Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately.
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    > Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately. If that's the case, the intersectionality preached in the online public square is a fallen version. The internet can make any system of thought bend to simplistic reasoning. Here, they've done it by "intersectinally" dividing identity into several axes, with one pole "privileged/oppressor" (e.g. white, male) and the other pole "unprivileged/oppressed" (e.g. brown, female). Stuff like "racism against whites isn't racism" lives on the white/brown identity axis. I think the reason you see so much opprobrium directed specifically at "white males" nowadays is because of this kind of thinking.
  - stcredzero 9y ago
    Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately. I'd like to see references. I've seen so many instances of references to idiotic equations using "prejudice + power" followed by bigoted logic which seeks to unperson entire groups wholesale on the basis of immutable characteristics. Where is the intellectual leadership of the left? Why am I seemingly alone in the condemnation of such toxic claptrap? Seriously, I would be super gratified to see such references!
stcredzero 9y ago
Is an eerie similarity between two online groups of people going to mean you abandon attempts to bring about equality of the sexes, races, classes, etc.? Methods matter. Principles matter. The ends do not justify the means. If one advocates, "By Any Means Necessary," then one has disclaimed morals and principles, declaring that they have the judgement to take on the power to lie, cheat, or harm. Power corrupts, and especially so in this case. The historical record bears this out -- especially in the case of those who resist or seek to reform. One group is "witch-hunting" to root out people who might be bringing stereotypes or prejudice along with their thoughts and ideas So you are admitting right-out that you seek to "thought-police" people. You admit to the witch-hunt, you just feel justified in it. You are straight-up admitting that you place yourself over other people -- over fellow citizens you supposedly adhere to the value of "equality" with -- to take on such power for yourself. Two wrongs do not make a right.

haberman 9y ago

> Is an eerie similarity between two online groups of people going to mean you abandon attempts to bring about equality of the sexes, races, classes, etc.? [...] And if you will abandon it, what will you embrace instead? Conservative racism? Can you really think of no ideology that can live between the poles of intersectional/postmodern feminism and "conservative racism?" What strange times we live in. There are a lot of articulate people out there fighting the good fight. Their vision of the world rejects extremists on both sides. Check out Helen Pluckrose, Jonathan Haidt, Steven Pinker, and anything on quillette.com, just to name a few.

abusoufiyan 9y ago
It's the parent comment to mine that mentioned bigoted racism, I was just showing that the false equivalence between that and "SJWs" is a bit ridiculous. Just in case you didn't read the parent comment to mine, here's the relevant part: >I've noted the eerie similarity between them and the bigoted people who used to racially bash me and my sister when we were children. If any of those people are like Steven Pinker, I'll pass. It's silly science-worshipping nonsense. Science/rationalism is good but it isn't the magical solution to all of the ills which plague humanity (as they like to make it seem).
- ThomPete 9y ago
  The similarity is definitely there in its tribal intolerance for other views. Claiming to fight for inequality becomes a bit hollow when the way you do that is to hinder other people from speaking. There is a space in between two unfortunate extremes of people who respect other peoples right to speak no matter how vile and uncomfortable it makes them feel.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  If any of those people are like Steven Pinker, I'll pass. It's silly science-worshipping nonsense. Science/rationalism is good but it isn't the magical solution to all of the ills which plague humanity (as they like to make it seem). Does Steven Pinker think he has all the answers? A fair reading of Steven Pinker would conclude anything but. He also knows full well that science isn't magic. However, the progress of science and industry has done way more to cure the ills of humanity than any other thing. Golda Meir was born to parents in conditions where parents would give birth to approaching 10 children in the hopes that a few would survive. It's vaccines, modern medicine, and bountiful food in modern societies which have changed that rotten equation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5JYSl_ioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5JYSl_ioA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPt8ElTQMIg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ramBFRt1Uzk
lambdadmitry 9y ago
I'm not sure it's right to equate intersectional feminism with "postmodern", Marxist one. The whole point of intersectionality is that people are not defined by single identity (e.g. "white male") and each person is in fact an intersection of various identities, privileges and disadvantages. If only more "leftist" subscribed to this idea, we wouldn't hear so much about identity politics. Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  > Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately. If that's the case, the intersectionality preached in the online public square is a fallen version. The internet can make any system of thought bend to simplistic reasoning. Here, they've done it by "intersectinally" dividing identity into several axes, with one pole "privileged/oppressor" (e.g. white, male) and the other pole "unprivileged/oppressed" (e.g. brown, female). Stuff like "racism against whites isn't racism" lives on the white/brown identity axis. I think the reason you see so much opprobrium directed specifically at "white males" nowadays is because of this kind of thinking.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Intersectionality is pretty much incompatible with that sort of simplistic reasoning (e.g. "racism against whites isn't racism") you can see online lately. I'd like to see references. I've seen so many instances of references to idiotic equations using "prejudice + power" followed by bigoted logic which seeks to unperson entire groups wholesale on the basis of immutable characteristics. Where is the intellectual leadership of the left? Why am I seemingly alone in the condemnation of such toxic claptrap? Seriously, I would be super gratified to see such references!

stcredzero 9y ago

Is an eerie similarity between two online groups of people going to mean you abandon attempts to bring about equality of the sexes, races, classes, etc.? Methods matter. Principles matter. The ends do not justify the means. If one advocates, "By Any Means Necessary," then one has disclaimed morals and principles, declaring that they have the judgement to take on the power to lie, cheat, or harm. Power corrupts, and especially so in this case. The historical record bears this out -- especially in the case of those who resist or seek to reform. One group is "witch-hunting" to root out people who might be bringing stereotypes or prejudice along with their thoughts and ideas So you are admitting right-out that you seek to "thought-police" people. You admit to the witch-hunt, you just feel justified in it. You are straight-up admitting that you place yourself over other people -- over fellow citizens you supposedly adhere to the value of "equality" with -- to take on such power for yourself. Two wrongs do not make a right.