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Why do people think that driving on snow/ice is going to be a challenge? Compared to recognizing the cars, lights, pedestrians, and their intention, that's pret

by Jyaif 9y ago

Why do people think that driving on snow/ice is going to be a challenge? Compared to recognizing the cars, lights, pedestrians, and their intention, that's pretty straightforward.

alkonaut 9y ago
Because it's harder to orientate when you can't see the street markings, see the street signs, when your cameras are snowed over. If you tried parking a new BMW after a snow storm and looked out the rear camera you know what I mean. Basically they have to do all they normally do but just the equipment they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow either costs an extra fortune, OR the passengers will have to start their ride by carefully wiping all sensors. If there is heavy snowfall, you'll probably have to clean them during the trip too. Roads that are usually 2 lanes become 1 lane when snow accumulates enough. People improvise to get where they want anyway - the 2 lanes at the traffic light which are normally one lane for turning and one for straight - is now just 1 lane for both turns and straight because of accumulated snow. The AI would need to observe other drivers (and pray they aren't all AI drivers) because stored map info will not work. As a driver you have to be able to guess whether something that looks like a 1ft ridge of snow is actually passable drift powder snow, or a frozen barrier of ice that will damage the car or get you stuck if you drive through it.
- cesarb 9y ago
  > but just the equipment they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow either costs an extra fortune Sorry if I'm being ignorant (where I live, below 20°C is really cold weather, and the lowest it gets is around 10°C, which I don't recall ever seeing), but wouldn't heaters be enough?
  - alkonaut 9y ago
    I’m not sure what would be required (currently few manufacturers get this right). Heaters take a long time to clear ice when starting if the car has a lot of snow and ice on it. VW has a good solution for their rear camera which is actually hidden under a hatch (the VW emblem) so it’s protected when unused. I’m picturing that future autonomous cars will need this type of solution for many sensors, similar to the “flip up headlights” of some 80s cars. Not least because lidars are also very expensive so you may not want them easy to grab from a parked car.
  - Piskvorrr 9y ago
    Not under current paradigm "go to car, start it up, [wait 15 minutes for sensors to unfreeze], go." Might be viable if the cars are 1.shared and 2.at high % of utilization (in other words, the car is never frozen). Of course, in mountainous winter, I've had wiper fluid freeze when it got to the windshield of a warmed up, running, moving car - had to stop and scrape off what was essentially a rubbing alcohol solution: even heating wouldn't help when local temperature goes to -40 (either scale ;)).
scj 9y ago
Vision is one problem under snow and ice. But the one I think will be tough to overcome is operational. In normal conditions, your car stops in a predictable way, at predictable speeds. It doesn't slide. It doesn't follow cut-paths in the road. Acceleration is a simple function. Think that you've adjusted for these parameters? Well, the ground you've driven to has more snow on it then before. Or you're elevation has decreased so the snow:ice ratio has shifted towards the later. And the above only describes the situation if you are one of the few people on the road. Add in all the other drivers who are acting _strangely_ in terms of performance and psychology. Driving lanes shift depending on where the road is clear, typically centering (bringing sliding cars closer together). Never mind people FOOLISHLY walking on the road (the sidewalks are covered in snow). Driving in cities in summer requires a high degree of attention and quick responses to others. But it is just a matter of interpretation and response. Winter driving is an art...
falcolas 9y ago
Well, when driving on snow and ice, none of your control inputs map exactly to the motion of the vehicle. Accelerate? Naw, let's yaw. Brake? Maybe tomorrow. Steering? Let's go straight. Going straight? Let's veer you over into the other lane. Figured out how to handle map inputs to road outputs? It heats up/cools down and changes everything. Again. In the best case, visibility restriction is limited to the sides of the roads, like in this video. In the worst cases, there is barely any indication of where the road is, and signs are also covered in snow. GPS is being blocked by the storm overhead. Forward visibility is down to being measured in tens of feet, from 10 miles only five minutes earlier. As for the vehicle itself and the electronics: in winter, they will need to function pretty much perfectly at up to -40°. Cars, if left outside, can be covered in layers of over 6" thick of snow and/or ice - and not always just on the top. While operating on winter roads, they will be exposed to a constant spray of slush and snow, combined with salt and sand. This spray will coat the grills and tails of cars. My vehicle has parking assist and radar assisted cruise control; neither of which work after driving down a road with fresh snow. Even the otherwise protected rear view camera gets coated in muck just from the aerodynamics of the car's tail. None of this is impossible to overcome, but the typical "it's just an engineering problem" is aggravating to hear.

by Jyaif 9y ago

Why do people think that driving on snow/ice is going to be a challenge? Compared to recognizing the cars, lights, pedestrians, and their intention, that's pretty straightforward.

alkonaut 9y ago

Because it's harder to orientate when you can't see the street markings, see the street signs, when your cameras are snowed over. If you tried parking a new BMW after a snow storm and looked out the rear camera you know what I mean. Basically they have to do all they normally do but just the equipment they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow either costs an extra fortune, OR the passengers will have to start their ride by carefully wiping all sensors. If there is heavy snowfall, you'll probably have to clean them during the trip too. Roads that are usually 2 lanes become 1 lane when snow accumulates enough. People improvise to get where they want anyway - the 2 lanes at the traffic light which are normally one lane for turning and one for straight - is now just 1 lane for both turns and straight because of accumulated snow. The AI would need to observe other drivers (and pray they aren't all AI drivers) because stored map info will not work. As a driver you have to be able to guess whether something that looks like a 1ft ridge of snow is actually passable drift powder snow, or a frozen barrier of ice that will damage the car or get you stuck if you drive through it.

cesarb 9y ago
> but just the equipment they need to keep cameras and lidars without snow either costs an extra fortune Sorry if I'm being ignorant (where I live, below 20°C is really cold weather, and the lowest it gets is around 10°C, which I don't recall ever seeing), but wouldn't heaters be enough?
- alkonaut 9y ago
  I’m not sure what would be required (currently few manufacturers get this right). Heaters take a long time to clear ice when starting if the car has a lot of snow and ice on it. VW has a good solution for their rear camera which is actually hidden under a hatch (the VW emblem) so it’s protected when unused. I’m picturing that future autonomous cars will need this type of solution for many sensors, similar to the “flip up headlights” of some 80s cars. Not least because lidars are also very expensive so you may not want them easy to grab from a parked car.
- Piskvorrr 9y ago
  Not under current paradigm "go to car, start it up, [wait 15 minutes for sensors to unfreeze], go." Might be viable if the cars are 1.shared and 2.at high % of utilization (in other words, the car is never frozen). Of course, in mountainous winter, I've had wiper fluid freeze when it got to the windshield of a warmed up, running, moving car - had to stop and scrape off what was essentially a rubbing alcohol solution: even heating wouldn't help when local temperature goes to -40 (either scale ;)).

scj 9y ago

Vision is one problem under snow and ice. But the one I think will be tough to overcome is operational. In normal conditions, your car stops in a predictable way, at predictable speeds. It doesn't slide. It doesn't follow cut-paths in the road. Acceleration is a simple function. Think that you've adjusted for these parameters? Well, the ground you've driven to has more snow on it then before. Or you're elevation has decreased so the snow:ice ratio has shifted towards the later. And the above only describes the situation if you are one of the few people on the road. Add in all the other drivers who are acting _strangely_ in terms of performance and psychology. Driving lanes shift depending on where the road is clear, typically centering (bringing sliding cars closer together). Never mind people FOOLISHLY walking on the road (the sidewalks are covered in snow). Driving in cities in summer requires a high degree of attention and quick responses to others. But it is just a matter of interpretation and response. Winter driving is an art...

falcolas 9y ago

Well, when driving on snow and ice, none of your control inputs map exactly to the motion of the vehicle. Accelerate? Naw, let's yaw. Brake? Maybe tomorrow. Steering? Let's go straight. Going straight? Let's veer you over into the other lane. Figured out how to handle map inputs to road outputs? It heats up/cools down and changes everything. Again. In the best case, visibility restriction is limited to the sides of the roads, like in this video. In the worst cases, there is barely any indication of where the road is, and signs are also covered in snow. GPS is being blocked by the storm overhead. Forward visibility is down to being measured in tens of feet, from 10 miles only five minutes earlier. As for the vehicle itself and the electronics: in winter, they will need to function pretty much perfectly at up to -40°. Cars, if left outside, can be covered in layers of over 6" thick of snow and/or ice - and not always just on the top. While operating on winter roads, they will be exposed to a constant spray of slush and snow, combined with salt and sand. This spray will coat the grills and tails of cars. My vehicle has parking assist and radar assisted cruise control; neither of which work after driving down a road with fresh snow. Even the otherwise protected rear view camera gets coated in muck just from the aerodynamics of the car's tail. None of this is impossible to overcome, but the typical "it's just an engineering problem" is aggravating to hear.