5 ms·

most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what

by jshen 16y ago

most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what factors actually set programmer or ceo pay. Saying, "market factors" is just hand waving. Now on to the specifics. According to this article they probably aren't going to get the pension they were promised since it's insolvent. They don't get 3 months off, exaggerating won't help your point. It's closer to two months. I get 3 weeks off. So I'm still failing to see the posh deal. An insolvent pension, and an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money right now. That's a pretty lousy deal if you ask me.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
In NYC, teachers get july, august, 1 week of september, the week after christmas and a week of spring break. That's 2 months 3 weeks, though obviously this varies from place to place. I'm not sure why you think teachers take a loss of 60k right now - most teachers are low human capital individuals and would not be earning $100k/year right out of college. And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance. Rock stars quickly get paid more, either at their current job or they quit and move on. If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign). That's what "market factors" means. In contrast, teacher pay is set by politics and longevity. Also, most teachers get early retirement (at 55, vs 65 for the programmer) on a defined benefit pension. Maybe it's insolvent, but most likely the rest of us will be forced to pay. In contrast, if my 401k tanks, I'm fucked.
- jshen 16y ago
  Ok, I wasn't counting holidays for my time off, only vacation days, so the difference is still the same. I didn't earn 100k a year right out of college, your trying to change the facts of the comparison. "And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance." It really isn't, it's based primarily on years of experience, who you know, and how outspokenly confident you are (regardless of whether the confidence is deserved). Every company I've ever been at has had programmers there were twice as productive as other programmers. They never got paid twice as much, and there was no correlation at all really, even it it isn't linear. Every programmer I know with 5-10 years experience gets a salary within a narrow range. "If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign)." No they don't. I get the distinct impression that you have an ideal in your head that isn't remotely close to the reality. If you are at a company of any size it's very hard to fire someone. Just curious, how old are you?
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    I'm not counting holidays, I'm counting week long periods where NYC teachers don't have to work. Do you get spring break and a week long Christmas vacation at your job? I got the number $100k from you: a teacher makes $40k, and when one takes a job as a teacher, "an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money". Then I used fancy mathematics. As for programmer pay, I'll just tell you the range from the last time I looked for a job. My lowest offer [1] was about 40% of my highest offer, but they weren't seeking great developers. I also happen to know of someone considerably better than me making 50% more (at the same level of experience). As for firing the incompetent, I don't know what company you are talking about. Plenty of people get fired. In NYC, until very recently, they were paid to show up to rubber rooms for years. [1] Not technically an offer, but salary was discussed.

by jshen 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

In NYC, teachers get july, august, 1 week of september, the week after christmas and a week of spring break. That's 2 months 3 weeks, though obviously this varies from place to place. I'm not sure why you think teachers take a loss of 60k right now - most teachers are low human capital individuals and would not be earning $100k/year right out of college. And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance. Rock stars quickly get paid more, either at their current job or they quit and move on. If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign). That's what "market factors" means. In contrast, teacher pay is set by politics and longevity. Also, most teachers get early retirement (at 55, vs 65 for the programmer) on a defined benefit pension. Maybe it's insolvent, but most likely the rest of us will be forced to pay. In contrast, if my 401k tanks, I'm fucked.

jshen 16y ago
Ok, I wasn't counting holidays for my time off, only vacation days, so the difference is still the same. I didn't earn 100k a year right out of college, your trying to change the facts of the comparison. "And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance." It really isn't, it's based primarily on years of experience, who you know, and how outspokenly confident you are (regardless of whether the confidence is deserved). Every company I've ever been at has had programmers there were twice as productive as other programmers. They never got paid twice as much, and there was no correlation at all really, even it it isn't linear. Every programmer I know with 5-10 years experience gets a salary within a narrow range. "If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign)." No they don't. I get the distinct impression that you have an ideal in your head that isn't remotely close to the reality. If you are at a company of any size it's very hard to fire someone. Just curious, how old are you?
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  I'm not counting holidays, I'm counting week long periods where NYC teachers don't have to work. Do you get spring break and a week long Christmas vacation at your job? I got the number $100k from you: a teacher makes $40k, and when one takes a job as a teacher, "an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money". Then I used fancy mathematics. As for programmer pay, I'll just tell you the range from the last time I looked for a job. My lowest offer [1] was about 40% of my highest offer, but they weren't seeking great developers. I also happen to know of someone considerably better than me making 50% more (at the same level of experience). As for firing the incompetent, I don't know what company you are talking about. Plenty of people get fired. In NYC, until very recently, they were paid to show up to rubber rooms for years. [1] Not technically an offer, but salary was discussed.