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You realize that communism didn't drag Russia down but actually improved their quality of life from the reign of the Czars right? They were an unindustrialized

You realize that communism didn't drag Russia down but actually improved their quality of life from the reign of the Czars right? They were an unindustrialized starving shithole and became 2nd world power. Communism was far from perfect, but it was a step forward at least up until the mid 1950s.

literallycancer 9y ago
Russia had an elected parliament since 1905. >You realize that communism didn't drag Russia down but actually improved their quality of life from the reign of the Czars right? Did it improve faster than it would have under democratic rule? And then there is the whole business with making half of Europe a 'starving shithole'.
- nullymcnull 9y ago
  I'm going to assume that you are just reaching out for counterfacts without being particularly well-versed on the history here, because the Russian Duma was, from inception to the revolution, a very bad joke. It was only barely tolerated by Nicholas, and dissolved for years at a time whenever it tried to compel the autocracy toward meaningful reforms. That parliament has a very great deal to do with why events took the radical course they did - it effectively discredited everyone who tried to work within the system.
- rospaya 9y ago
  > Did it improve faster than it would have under democratic rule? That wasn't an option for Russia at any point, as it isn't even today.
  - nasredin 9y ago
    It's sad. Russia only had less than a decade of somewhat democratic rule over the last... I don't even know... years.
oh_sigh 9y ago
Things had been on the up and up for the commoners in Russia since ~1860s, and Nicholas II was a relatively fair minded ruler. His biggest flaw was a thirst to maintain power, even though he objectively was impressed with constitutional monarchy. If he had let Russia transition peacefully into that form of government, we could have avoided communism.
obscurantist 9y ago
I'm taking none of your ancestors or grandparents lived during Stalin's reign?
jlehman 9y ago
You cannot be serious. Unindustrialized? Sure. Starving? You could add up the death counts of all known famines in Russia's pre-Bolshevik history and you end up with no more than half the amount dead in just the famine referenced in OP. And that's largely due to the policies implemented by Lenin[1] to ensure that food went primarily to supporters of the Bolsheviks. How about the famine of 1932-1933[2][3] in which ~10 million (the number is disputed, but when it varies by millions, the point is made) died due to dekulakization[4], in which those farmers that had proved to be competent enough to gather some wealth after having been liberated by the Tsars a half-century earlier were brutally raped and murdered. Guess what happens when you kill all the competent farmers? You've said that it was a "step forward at least up until the mid 1950's", meaning during Lenin and Stalin's reign? Do some damned reading[5] before you make claims like this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor [3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-photos-1920s-Russian-famine-turned-hopeless-peasants-cannibals-five-million-people-starved-death.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago
lootsauce 9y ago
"it was a step forward" that is no way to move forward. Setting aside political ideology it was one of the most murderous regiemes the planet has ever seen. For the tens of millions who it intentionally starved to death, worked to death in the gulag, or just summarily murdered it was certainly not better than living in an undeveloped shithole. For them its forward movement was only toward the grave. Imagine all the good that might have been done by these millions if their human dignity were upheld and they were allowed to live. Perhaps one of them would have developed a great medical breakthrough. Imagine the inumerable works of art and music, theater that might have been made. Imagine the things they could have built and done to make the world a better place. If they had children and grand-children what of their potential contributions? Russia might actually have become the greatest world power.
- baursak 9y ago
  > For the tens of millions who it intentionally starved to death, worked to death in the gulag, or just summarily murdered Tens of millions? Intentionally starved? Citations needed, to say the least.
  - lootsauce 9y ago
    Fair enough, combined all purposive deaths, though hotly debated, per wikipedia under Stalin alone the number ranges from 8 to 61 million. So my tens of millions in that context is not out of line though safer to say millions. Either way its abhorrent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...
Fins 9y ago
It is actually very questionable if communists did improve the quality of life for anyone other than themselves. For tens of millions of Soviet citizens their life had improved straight into the afterlife.

literallycancer 9y ago

Russia had an elected parliament since 1905. >You realize that communism didn't drag Russia down but actually improved their quality of life from the reign of the Czars right? Did it improve faster than it would have under democratic rule? And then there is the whole business with making half of Europe a 'starving shithole'.

nullymcnull 9y ago
I'm going to assume that you are just reaching out for counterfacts without being particularly well-versed on the history here, because the Russian Duma was, from inception to the revolution, a very bad joke. It was only barely tolerated by Nicholas, and dissolved for years at a time whenever it tried to compel the autocracy toward meaningful reforms. That parliament has a very great deal to do with why events took the radical course they did - it effectively discredited everyone who tried to work within the system.
rospaya 9y ago
> Did it improve faster than it would have under democratic rule? That wasn't an option for Russia at any point, as it isn't even today.
- nasredin 9y ago
  It's sad. Russia only had less than a decade of somewhat democratic rule over the last... I don't even know... years.

oh_sigh 9y ago

Things had been on the up and up for the commoners in Russia since ~1860s, and Nicholas II was a relatively fair minded ruler. His biggest flaw was a thirst to maintain power, even though he objectively was impressed with constitutional monarchy. If he had let Russia transition peacefully into that form of government, we could have avoided communism.

obscurantist 9y ago

I'm taking none of your ancestors or grandparents lived during Stalin's reign?

jlehman 9y ago

You cannot be serious. Unindustrialized? Sure. Starving? You could add up the death counts of all known famines in Russia's pre-Bolshevik history and you end up with no more than half the amount dead in just the famine referenced in OP. And that's largely due to the policies implemented by Lenin[1] to ensure that food went primarily to supporters of the Bolsheviks. How about the famine of 1932-1933[2][3] in which ~10 million (the number is disputed, but when it varies by millions, the point is made) died due to dekulakization[4], in which those farmers that had proved to be competent enough to gather some wealth after having been liberated by the Tsars a half-century earlier were brutally raped and murdered. Guess what happens when you kill all the competent farmers? You've said that it was a "step forward at least up until the mid 1950's", meaning during Lenin and Stalin's reign? Do some damned reading[5] before you make claims like this. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodrazvyorstka [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor [3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-photos-1920s-Russian-famine-turned-hopeless-peasants-cannibals-five-million-people-starved-death.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4076244/Distressing-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekulakization [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Gulag_Archipelago

lootsauce 9y ago

"it was a step forward" that is no way to move forward. Setting aside political ideology it was one of the most murderous regiemes the planet has ever seen. For the tens of millions who it intentionally starved to death, worked to death in the gulag, or just summarily murdered it was certainly not better than living in an undeveloped shithole. For them its forward movement was only toward the grave. Imagine all the good that might have been done by these millions if their human dignity were upheld and they were allowed to live. Perhaps one of them would have developed a great medical breakthrough. Imagine the inumerable works of art and music, theater that might have been made. Imagine the things they could have built and done to make the world a better place. If they had children and grand-children what of their potential contributions? Russia might actually have become the greatest world power.

baursak 9y ago
> For the tens of millions who it intentionally starved to death, worked to death in the gulag, or just summarily murdered Tens of millions? Intentionally starved? Citations needed, to say the least.
- lootsauce 9y ago
  Fair enough, combined all purposive deaths, though hotly debated, per wikipedia under Stalin alone the number ranges from 8 to 61 million. So my tens of millions in that context is not out of line though safer to say millions. Either way its abhorrent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes#Soviet_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_...

Fins 9y ago

It is actually very questionable if communists did improve the quality of life for anyone other than themselves. For tens of millions of Soviet citizens their life had improved straight into the afterlife.