8 ms·

Bitcoin thieves threaten real violence for virtual currencies

41 points by SirLJ 9y ago

bufferoverflow 9y ago
Safety deposit boxes are quite cheap, around $20/year. It will probably become a norm to store most of your coins in cold storage in a bank. Physical security is expensive, and banks are good at it.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  So none of the convenience of a bank, but all of the centralization.
- aphextron 9y ago
  >Safety deposit boxes are quite cheap, around $20/year. It will probably become a norm to store most of your coins in cold storage in a bank. Physical security is expensive, and banks are good at it. Still doesn't change the fact that I can kidnap your family and hold them ransom until you go to your safety deposit box and get the bitcoin to send to me. The problem is with the non-reversible nature of the payment system, and the fact that it exists outside the realm of a justice system, not with physical security.
  - DennisP 9y ago
    They could do the same if you store physical gold in your safe deposit, but rich people vault gold without any problems.
    - bb88 9y ago
      Well... they're rich. So likely they're going to have cash, investments, real estate, etc. It makes the loss of gold painful, but it's not the end of everything.
      - DennisP 9y ago
        That can be equally true of crypto.
        niij 9y ago
        Cryptocurrencies
    - 21 9y ago
      Gold is much harder to move around, and when you'll try to convert it back into dollars you'll find out that nobody buys bars of gold without extensive origin paper trail.
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    Bitcoin does not exist “outside the realm of a justice system”; it is as much subject to such systems as any other currency is. Justice systems, like the thieves in this article, operate ultimately by the application of the threat (and reality, as necessary) of physical violence to ensure compliance, and they deal with non-physical subject matter all the time.
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    But we're not talking about kidnapping. We're talking about someone breaking into your place, and hitting you with a wrench till you send your coins. In the case of a kidnapping, it doesn't matter how you store your money, even if it's regular dollars, you will get them from your account and you will send them anywhere.
- sneak 9y ago
  This approach suffers from several different problems: 1) governments, banks, regulatory authorities can seize the contents of your deposit box at their discretion and often without due process 2) if the bank burns down, your funds are toast 3) not quickly accessible There are much, much better options for bitcoin security that don't involve depending on steel bank vaults to keep numbers safe/secret.
- _red 9y ago
  AES256 + 40-char passphrase is more secure than any physical structure ever built. Just encrypt your wallet and save on multiple USB sticks / S3 / Dropbox / etc.
  - IntronExon 9y ago
    Counterpoint which has already been proven effective re cryptocurrency: https://www.xkcd.com/538/ https://www.xkcd.com/538/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/30/cryptocurrency-expert-kidnap-1-million-bitcoin/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/30/cryptocurrency-expert-ki...
  - bufferoverflow 9y ago
    Ok, so if I'm a bad guy, I will threaten you with violence, that will be enough for most people to send the coins. There are very few people in the world that can withstand actual torture, especially of the loved ones.
rajacombinator 9y ago
Surprise - crypto does not solve physical violence. It’s meant to solve virtual economic violence by governments.
- scblock 9y ago
  Well it certainly doesn't do that...
  - tbihl 9y ago
    It certainly does, though not categorically. Nonetheless, I'm sure the people who manage to regain a measure of control in their lives by using Bitcoin welcome the opportunity. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/big-in-venezuela/534177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/big-in-...
  - acct1771 9y ago
    NK, Venezuela, and Russia disagree.
anonova 9y ago
Relevant comic: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ I'd really like to see zero-knowledge transactions as default in the future, just to avoid the sendee seeing your wallet's balance.
Theodores 9y ago
Last week a lottery winner requested anonymity and has yet to claim the millions as anonymity is not how it works. I wonder if a PR company helped with this article as there are lots of references to experts with products to sell.
- BoorishBears 9y ago
  That is how it works if done correctly. There was a process for her to get the money through a trust that wouldn’t be linked directly to her, but she signed for the winnings in a way that doesn’t allow that process anymore.
jashmenn 9y ago
I've been following these sort of cases and I haven't found one article that actually publishes the alleged transaction hashes of the event. For better or for worse, there would be tons of vigilantes who would be happy to track down the current location of these funds. That is, until the robbers figure out they can require the hostage to convert into Monero first.
- greggarious 9y ago
  Has anyone done a serious audit on Monero? I have a feeling people are overconfident about it's anonymity. Picture Tor. Now picture your browsing history is stored forever so if there's ever a bug in the protocol, it all goes clear...
  - acct1771 9y ago
    That's basically the current state of things with Tor, under the what I think is very real assumption that all traffic is stored.
    - greggarious 9y ago
      > That's basically the current state of things with Tor, under the what I think is very real assumption that all traffic is stored. I mean, systems like Tempora[1] and the NSA's Utah data center[2] are known. Tempora apparently stores data for 3 days and metadata for 30 days. I'd concede they may store metadata, but I seriously doubt they're storing the full traffic. That doesn't seem doable from a logistical standpoint. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
      - acct1771 9y ago
        > That doesn't seem doable from a logistical standpoint. Surely you're not going to cite budgetary constraint.
- 9y ago
woodpanel 9y ago
As a crypto-outsider I wonder what would happen if the transaction hashes of these robberies we're being flagged as robberies? Doesn't the blockchain allow for tracking of any sufficient transactions and thus allow for descendants of flagged transactions to be prohibited from ever being converted into real currency again? I guess, the "leverage" in this case would be that any platform/exchange/etc. that wants to go "official" (eg. IPO, or paying capital gains taxes) will have a problem if there are flagged funds in their books. (Sorry, if this sounds ridiculously stupid for crypto guys)
- walls 9y ago
  Who is the 'judge' in these cases responsible for updating the blacklist? How do you verify certain coins were stolen as opposed to an angry/regretful buyer?
  - bb88 9y ago
    In the real world, you'd file a police report and then tell your bank. And let the bank put a hold on the transaction. That way if it was buyer's remorse you would have committed a crime by filing a police report in the first place.
    - bdcravens 9y ago
      In the cryptocurrency world, involving a central authority really doesn't work.
      - bb88 9y ago
        Is that a bug or a feature? Edited to add: There is this idea of trust in centralized and decentralized currencies, and they're both different. In the centralized currency I can trust that if someone was ripped off there's recourse, However, in a decentralized one I cannot trust there's recourse?
        bdcravens 9y ago
bdcravens 9y ago
Perhaps this classic XKCD should be updated for Bitcoin: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
21 9y ago
This is why I've always found the "be your own bank" rallying point crazy. I don't want to be my own bank. There are many reasons why people stopped keeping their liquid wealth under their mattress.
- ballenf 9y ago
  Most banks aren't even their own banks: very few branches keep anything close the $1.8M mentioned in one of the heists.
walrus01 9y ago
a fairly well defined threat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis
rsbartram 9y ago
I trade Bitcoin futures with TradeStation and so far I have been safe. No hacks or unexpected losses. No need for violence when you can make money instead. https://latechnews.org/tradestation-your-broker-wherever-you-go/ https://latechnews.org/tradestation-your-broker-wherever-you...

41 points by SirLJ 9y ago

Safety deposit boxes are quite cheap, around $20/year. It will probably become a norm to store most of your coins in cold storage in a bank. Physical security is expensive, and banks are good at it.

IntronExon 9y ago
So none of the convenience of a bank, but all of the centralization.
aphextron 9y ago
>Safety deposit boxes are quite cheap, around $20/year. It will probably become a norm to store most of your coins in cold storage in a bank. Physical security is expensive, and banks are good at it. Still doesn't change the fact that I can kidnap your family and hold them ransom until you go to your safety deposit box and get the bitcoin to send to me. The problem is with the non-reversible nature of the payment system, and the fact that it exists outside the realm of a justice system, not with physical security.
- DennisP 9y ago
  They could do the same if you store physical gold in your safe deposit, but rich people vault gold without any problems.
  - bb88 9y ago
    Well... they're rich. So likely they're going to have cash, investments, real estate, etc. It makes the loss of gold painful, but it's not the end of everything.
    - DennisP 9y ago
      That can be equally true of crypto.
      - niij 9y ago
        Cryptocurrencies
  - 21 9y ago
    Gold is much harder to move around, and when you'll try to convert it back into dollars you'll find out that nobody buys bars of gold without extensive origin paper trail.
- dragonwriter 9y ago
  Bitcoin does not exist “outside the realm of a justice system”; it is as much subject to such systems as any other currency is. Justice systems, like the thieves in this article, operate ultimately by the application of the threat (and reality, as necessary) of physical violence to ensure compliance, and they deal with non-physical subject matter all the time.
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  But we're not talking about kidnapping. We're talking about someone breaking into your place, and hitting you with a wrench till you send your coins. In the case of a kidnapping, it doesn't matter how you store your money, even if it's regular dollars, you will get them from your account and you will send them anywhere.
sneak 9y ago
This approach suffers from several different problems: 1) governments, banks, regulatory authorities can seize the contents of your deposit box at their discretion and often without due process 2) if the bank burns down, your funds are toast 3) not quickly accessible There are much, much better options for bitcoin security that don't involve depending on steel bank vaults to keep numbers safe/secret.
_red 9y ago
AES256 + 40-char passphrase is more secure than any physical structure ever built. Just encrypt your wallet and save on multiple USB sticks / S3 / Dropbox / etc.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  Counterpoint which has already been proven effective re cryptocurrency: https://www.xkcd.com/538/ https://www.xkcd.com/538/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/30/cryptocurrency-expert-kidnap-1-million-bitcoin/ https://www.engadget.com/2017/12/30/cryptocurrency-expert-ki...
- bufferoverflow 9y ago
  Ok, so if I'm a bad guy, I will threaten you with violence, that will be enough for most people to send the coins. There are very few people in the world that can withstand actual torture, especially of the loved ones.

rajacombinator 9y ago

Surprise - crypto does not solve physical violence. It’s meant to solve virtual economic violence by governments.

scblock 9y ago
Well it certainly doesn't do that...
- tbihl 9y ago
  It certainly does, though not categorically. Nonetheless, I'm sure the people who manage to regain a measure of control in their lives by using Bitcoin welcome the opportunity. https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/big-in-venezuela/534177/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/big-in-...
- acct1771 9y ago
  NK, Venezuela, and Russia disagree.

anonova 9y ago

Relevant comic: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/ I'd really like to see zero-knowledge transactions as default in the future, just to avoid the sendee seeing your wallet's balance.

Theodores 9y ago

Last week a lottery winner requested anonymity and has yet to claim the millions as anonymity is not how it works. I wonder if a PR company helped with this article as there are lots of references to experts with products to sell.

BoorishBears 9y ago
That is how it works if done correctly. There was a process for her to get the money through a trust that wouldn’t be linked directly to her, but she signed for the winnings in a way that doesn’t allow that process anymore.

jashmenn 9y ago

I've been following these sort of cases and I haven't found one article that actually publishes the alleged transaction hashes of the event. For better or for worse, there would be tons of vigilantes who would be happy to track down the current location of these funds. That is, until the robbers figure out they can require the hostage to convert into Monero first.

greggarious 9y ago
Has anyone done a serious audit on Monero? I have a feeling people are overconfident about it's anonymity. Picture Tor. Now picture your browsing history is stored forever so if there's ever a bug in the protocol, it all goes clear...
- acct1771 9y ago
  That's basically the current state of things with Tor, under the what I think is very real assumption that all traffic is stored.
  - greggarious 9y ago
    > That's basically the current state of things with Tor, under the what I think is very real assumption that all traffic is stored. I mean, systems like Tempora[1] and the NSA's Utah data center[2] are known. Tempora apparently stores data for 3 days and metadata for 30 days. I'd concede they may store metadata, but I seriously doubt they're storing the full traffic. That doesn't seem doable from a logistical standpoint. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tempora [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utah_Data_Center
    - acct1771 9y ago
      > That doesn't seem doable from a logistical standpoint. Surely you're not going to cite budgetary constraint.
9y ago

woodpanel 9y ago

As a crypto-outsider I wonder what would happen if the transaction hashes of these robberies we're being flagged as robberies? Doesn't the blockchain allow for tracking of any sufficient transactions and thus allow for descendants of flagged transactions to be prohibited from ever being converted into real currency again? I guess, the "leverage" in this case would be that any platform/exchange/etc. that wants to go "official" (eg. IPO, or paying capital gains taxes) will have a problem if there are flagged funds in their books. (Sorry, if this sounds ridiculously stupid for crypto guys)

walls 9y ago
Who is the 'judge' in these cases responsible for updating the blacklist? How do you verify certain coins were stolen as opposed to an angry/regretful buyer?
- bb88 9y ago
  In the real world, you'd file a police report and then tell your bank. And let the bank put a hold on the transaction. That way if it was buyer's remorse you would have committed a crime by filing a police report in the first place.
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    In the cryptocurrency world, involving a central authority really doesn't work.
    - bb88 9y ago
      Is that a bug or a feature? Edited to add: There is this idea of trust in centralized and decentralized currencies, and they're both different. In the centralized currency I can trust that if someone was ripped off there's recourse, However, in a decentralized one I cannot trust there's recourse?
      - bdcravens 9y ago

bdcravens 9y ago

Perhaps this classic XKCD should be updated for Bitcoin: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/

21 9y ago

This is why I've always found the "be your own bank" rallying point crazy. I don't want to be my own bank. There are many reasons why people stopped keeping their liquid wealth under their mattress.

ballenf 9y ago
Most banks aren't even their own banks: very few branches keep anything close the $1.8M mentioned in one of the heists.

walrus01 9y ago

a fairly well defined threat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubber-hose_cryptanalysis

rsbartram 9y ago

I trade Bitcoin futures with TradeStation and so far I have been safe. No hacks or unexpected losses. No need for violence when you can make money instead. https://latechnews.org/tradestation-your-broker-wherever-you-go/ https://latechnews.org/tradestation-your-broker-wherever-you...