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> I can't dig a shovel of dirt from my field without finding a plastic fragment This, in the wider environment, whether microbeads in fish or plastic bags in t

> I can't dig a shovel of dirt from my field without finding a plastic fragment This, in the wider environment, whether microbeads in fish or plastic bags in the ocean, is one of the greatest modern tragedies IMHO.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago
I disagree. I'm not sure its at all significant. Whether the fish has sand or plastic fragments in its gut may be immaterial. This issue has been fastened onto by well-meaning folks without much study. Perversely, the fact that many fish have micro beads in them is encouraging - they clearly are surviving and reproducing despite the beads (or we wouldn't be finding them in such large numbers).
- specialist 9y ago
  So, not a big fan of the hippocratic oath (precautionary principle)? I really don’t know how to respond to denial, whatsboutism, selective incredulity. Mostly, I give up. But know that when obstructionists finally get a clue, I’m fresh out of goodwill, and won’t be helping. Good luck.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Sure, be cautious. But about what? Which things? Talk about isms, the tendency of the popular press to latch onto big obvious things and say "What about microplastic beads?!" Its something folks can see and get behind. Never mind there's not much evidence its actually a problem. We have a limited fund of energy, emotional and productive. To spend it on microplastic beads may well be the right direction. But is surely takes attention away from things that ARE definitely a problem. I'm not some Pollyanna ignorant person that's deliberately denying science or whatever. Just the opposite.
    - specialist 9y ago
      "Never mind there's not much evidence its actually a problem." What measure of proof do you require, to convince you that it's a problem worthy of your attention?
      - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        Any proof at all. To say 'there are plastic beads in fish' is not any kind of data point.
    - sametmax 9y ago
      Then you wouldn't mind to drink water containing such plastic for the rest of your life, would you ? And give it to your kid ? Cause as long as we have no proof it's dangerous...
      - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
        Well of course we're all doing that already. Just in very low amounts. I don't worry about what's not a problem.
- oldcynic 9y ago
  That seems quite the stretch. We don't know enough of the long term consequences of them in fish, or if there is any genetic damage. Or of chemicals concentrating as they move up the food chain, eventually to us. To me that is very discouraging. We should be trying to find out consequences before we dump millions of tonnes and find plastic strewn over uninhabited beaches and micro beads in most oceanic life. We should study the possible consequences of undersea mining long before companies are formed and machines start rolling. It might, after all, turn out to be yet another bad idea.
  - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
    Sure, that's a good idea. But we're doing a million things every day, and tiny plastic beads are just one thing. And maybe not even a damaging thing. I think we could attend to things that are provably a problem. That way, we're actually doing good. Instead of just playing a game of 'ecological theatre' .
    - ianai 9y ago
      This really is a proven problem. Plastic doesn’t enter into the ocean in isolation. It’s dumped with all the other environmental, health damaging chemicals, metals, and etc. Humankind is not taking care of its waste and it’s destroying the weather cycles, climate, and ecosystems.
- tomalpha 9y ago
  I can’t see how microbeads in fish can in any way be a good thing can it? And I think it’s pretty conclusive plastic waste in general is a very bad thing in the ocean for more reasons than just ingestion by fish [0] [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/bali-declares-rubbish-emergency-rising-tide-plastic-buries-beaches/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/bali-declares-rub...

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

I disagree. I'm not sure its at all significant. Whether the fish has sand or plastic fragments in its gut may be immaterial. This issue has been fastened onto by well-meaning folks without much study. Perversely, the fact that many fish have micro beads in them is encouraging - they clearly are surviving and reproducing despite the beads (or we wouldn't be finding them in such large numbers).

specialist 9y ago
So, not a big fan of the hippocratic oath (precautionary principle)? I really don’t know how to respond to denial, whatsboutism, selective incredulity. Mostly, I give up. But know that when obstructionists finally get a clue, I’m fresh out of goodwill, and won’t be helping. Good luck.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Sure, be cautious. But about what? Which things? Talk about isms, the tendency of the popular press to latch onto big obvious things and say "What about microplastic beads?!" Its something folks can see and get behind. Never mind there's not much evidence its actually a problem. We have a limited fund of energy, emotional and productive. To spend it on microplastic beads may well be the right direction. But is surely takes attention away from things that ARE definitely a problem. I'm not some Pollyanna ignorant person that's deliberately denying science or whatever. Just the opposite.
  - specialist 9y ago
    "Never mind there's not much evidence its actually a problem." What measure of proof do you require, to convince you that it's a problem worthy of your attention?
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      Any proof at all. To say 'there are plastic beads in fish' is not any kind of data point.
  - sametmax 9y ago
    Then you wouldn't mind to drink water containing such plastic for the rest of your life, would you ? And give it to your kid ? Cause as long as we have no proof it's dangerous...
    - JoeAltmaier 9y ago
      Well of course we're all doing that already. Just in very low amounts. I don't worry about what's not a problem.
oldcynic 9y ago
That seems quite the stretch. We don't know enough of the long term consequences of them in fish, or if there is any genetic damage. Or of chemicals concentrating as they move up the food chain, eventually to us. To me that is very discouraging. We should be trying to find out consequences before we dump millions of tonnes and find plastic strewn over uninhabited beaches and micro beads in most oceanic life. We should study the possible consequences of undersea mining long before companies are formed and machines start rolling. It might, after all, turn out to be yet another bad idea.
- JoeAltmaier 9y ago
  Sure, that's a good idea. But we're doing a million things every day, and tiny plastic beads are just one thing. And maybe not even a damaging thing. I think we could attend to things that are provably a problem. That way, we're actually doing good. Instead of just playing a game of 'ecological theatre' .
  - ianai 9y ago
    This really is a proven problem. Plastic doesn’t enter into the ocean in isolation. It’s dumped with all the other environmental, health damaging chemicals, metals, and etc. Humankind is not taking care of its waste and it’s destroying the weather cycles, climate, and ecosystems.
tomalpha 9y ago
I can’t see how microbeads in fish can in any way be a good thing can it? And I think it’s pretty conclusive plastic waste in general is a very bad thing in the ocean for more reasons than just ingestion by fish [0] [0] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/bali-declares-rubbish-emergency-rising-tide-plastic-buries-beaches/ http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/28/bali-declares-rub...