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> If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk

> If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk about them too. Among other things, it's almost impossible for them to get fired and their raises don't seem to be connected to performance. They also get to take three months off during the summer, bringing their annualized salary up to about 70k. If you throw their pension plans into the mix, it is actually very profitable compared to most employment pursuits available to liberal arts majors. Also, it's hard to compare the deal they are getting versus the one you are getting, because unlike yours, the price on teachers' labor is not set in a market environment. You might also say that the labor of a construction worker or fast food cook is more back-breaking and intensive than yours, but ultimately that is not the criterion on which wages are decided. The same goes for level of education and experience. None of these are the sole factors that determine what an individual's labor is worth.

jbooth 16y ago
If they have such a great deal, why aren't you a teacher?
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  Different people have different tolerance for risk, different preferences for activity, different sets of cultivated skills etc. Mine line up better with programming than teaching, and I can make more doing it to boot. Earlier, you were claiming that teachers are getting a raw deal because you are paid so much better as a programmer. To put the previous paragraph in completely unambiguous terms, let me ask you this: "If programming is so great, why isn't your wife working as a programmer?" Does that really sound like a reasonable or relevant question to you?
  - jshen 16y ago
    Your confusing different commenters.
    - houseabsolute 16y ago
      My apologies. I'll edit my post to reflect the reality of the situation. Edit: as it turns out, I can't, so you'll have to make do with my apologies. :)
jshen 16y ago
most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what factors actually set programmer or ceo pay. Saying, "market factors" is just hand waving. Now on to the specifics. According to this article they probably aren't going to get the pension they were promised since it's insolvent. They don't get 3 months off, exaggerating won't help your point. It's closer to two months. I get 3 weeks off. So I'm still failing to see the posh deal. An insolvent pension, and an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money right now. That's a pretty lousy deal if you ask me.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  In NYC, teachers get july, august, 1 week of september, the week after christmas and a week of spring break. That's 2 months 3 weeks, though obviously this varies from place to place. I'm not sure why you think teachers take a loss of 60k right now - most teachers are low human capital individuals and would not be earning $100k/year right out of college. And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance. Rock stars quickly get paid more, either at their current job or they quit and move on. If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign). That's what "market factors" means. In contrast, teacher pay is set by politics and longevity. Also, most teachers get early retirement (at 55, vs 65 for the programmer) on a defined benefit pension. Maybe it's insolvent, but most likely the rest of us will be forced to pay. In contrast, if my 401k tanks, I'm fucked.
  - jshen 16y ago
    Ok, I wasn't counting holidays for my time off, only vacation days, so the difference is still the same. I didn't earn 100k a year right out of college, your trying to change the facts of the comparison. "And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance." It really isn't, it's based primarily on years of experience, who you know, and how outspokenly confident you are (regardless of whether the confidence is deserved). Every company I've ever been at has had programmers there were twice as productive as other programmers. They never got paid twice as much, and there was no correlation at all really, even it it isn't linear. Every programmer I know with 5-10 years experience gets a salary within a narrow range. "If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign)." No they don't. I get the distinct impression that you have an ideal in your head that isn't remotely close to the reality. If you are at a company of any size it's very hard to fire someone. Just curious, how old are you?

jbooth 16y ago

If they have such a great deal, why aren't you a teacher?

houseabsolute 16y ago
Different people have different tolerance for risk, different preferences for activity, different sets of cultivated skills etc. Mine line up better with programming than teaching, and I can make more doing it to boot. Earlier, you were claiming that teachers are getting a raw deal because you are paid so much better as a programmer. To put the previous paragraph in completely unambiguous terms, let me ask you this: "If programming is so great, why isn't your wife working as a programmer?" Does that really sound like a reasonable or relevant question to you?
- jshen 16y ago
  Your confusing different commenters.
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    My apologies. I'll edit my post to reflect the reality of the situation. Edit: as it turns out, I can't, so you'll have to make do with my apologies. :)

jshen 16y ago

most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what factors actually set programmer or ceo pay. Saying, "market factors" is just hand waving. Now on to the specifics. According to this article they probably aren't going to get the pension they were promised since it's insolvent. They don't get 3 months off, exaggerating won't help your point. It's closer to two months. I get 3 weeks off. So I'm still failing to see the posh deal. An insolvent pension, and an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money right now. That's a pretty lousy deal if you ask me.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
In NYC, teachers get july, august, 1 week of september, the week after christmas and a week of spring break. That's 2 months 3 weeks, though obviously this varies from place to place. I'm not sure why you think teachers take a loss of 60k right now - most teachers are low human capital individuals and would not be earning $100k/year right out of college. And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance. Rock stars quickly get paid more, either at their current job or they quit and move on. If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign). That's what "market factors" means. In contrast, teacher pay is set by politics and longevity. Also, most teachers get early retirement (at 55, vs 65 for the programmer) on a defined benefit pension. Maybe it's insolvent, but most likely the rest of us will be forced to pay. In contrast, if my 401k tanks, I'm fucked.
- jshen 16y ago
  Ok, I wasn't counting holidays for my time off, only vacation days, so the difference is still the same. I didn't earn 100k a year right out of college, your trying to change the facts of the comparison. "And yes, most programmers pay is related to their performance." It really isn't, it's based primarily on years of experience, who you know, and how outspokenly confident you are (regardless of whether the confidence is deserved). Every company I've ever been at has had programmers there were twice as productive as other programmers. They never got paid twice as much, and there was no correlation at all really, even it it isn't linear. Every programmer I know with 5-10 years experience gets a salary within a narrow range. "If they suck, they get fired (a concept teachers may find somewhat foreign)." No they don't. I get the distinct impression that you have an ideal in your head that isn't remotely close to the reality. If you are at a company of any size it's very hard to fire someone. Just curious, how old are you?