4 ms·

<blockquote>welcoming history and the paradox of tolerance</blockquote> The "paradox of tolerance" is only a paradox if you assume that society can determine o

by drovo9 9y ago

<blockquote>welcoming history and the paradox of tolerance</blockquote> The "paradox of tolerance" is only a paradox if you assume that society can determine objectively for its citizens what constitutes "tolerant" and "intolerant" behavior; such societies are by necessity totalitarian. In a free society, there is no paradox of tolerance; in free societies, individuals make their own choices and judgments about each other, and there are many different, conflicting views about which choices are tolerant and which are intolerant.

bendbro 9y ago
And if (everyone minus you) freely chooses to not sell you food, water, shelter or services for $random_reason, does that still count as a free society?
wpietri 9y ago
I think objectivity is a red herring; there are useful subjectivities, good-enough heuristics. And I think your theoretical, "Gosh, what is tolerance anyway," waffle breaks down when you apply it to real examples. Was early American society free for its time? Sure. Was it enormously intolerant? Yes. (Hint: black people were property because of their supposed inferiority. For similar reasons, white women were pretty close property themselves.) America has gotten somewhat better, but the Nadir [1], Jim Crow [2], redlining [3], white flight [4], and the Southern Strategy [5] make it clear that has only happened partially and with significant setbacks. The US right's recent hostility to GLBTQ rights and acceptance make it clear it's not just race. Are some people going to argue that Nazis in favor of violent ethnic cleansing are good people and that one can't really say they're intolerant of the people they're willing to kill? Sure. Can we still come up with a useful-enough working definition of "tolerance" (and therefore the "paradox of tolerance") that will save lives? Definitely. Many countries have done this successfully, and suggesting they're totalitarian just doesn't fly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relatio... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy

by drovo9 9y ago

bendbro 9y ago

And if (everyone minus you) freely chooses to not sell you food, water, shelter or services for $random_reason, does that still count as a free society?

wpietri 9y ago

I think objectivity is a red herring; there are useful subjectivities, good-enough heuristics. And I think your theoretical, "Gosh, what is tolerance anyway," waffle breaks down when you apply it to real examples. Was early American society free for its time? Sure. Was it enormously intolerant? Yes. (Hint: black people were property because of their supposed inferiority. For similar reasons, white women were pretty close property themselves.) America has gotten somewhat better, but the Nadir [1], Jim Crow [2], redlining [3], white flight [4], and the Southern Strategy [5] make it clear that has only happened partially and with significant setbacks. The US right's recent hostility to GLBTQ rights and acceptance make it clear it's not just race. Are some people going to argue that Nazis in favor of violent ethnic cleansing are good people and that one can't really say they're intolerant of the people they're willing to kill? Sure. Can we still come up with a useful-enough working definition of "tolerance" (and therefore the "paradox of tolerance") that will save lives? Definitely. Many countries have done this successfully, and suggesting they're totalitarian just doesn't fly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadir_of_American_race_relatio... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_laws [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_flight [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy