7 ms·

> You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. (http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655 http://sf-po

> You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. (http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655 http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655). Personally I think an entry-level pay of $80k for someone with only a high-school diploma is pretty good. There are other areas in the Bay where pay is even higher, like Oakland. I can't speak to highway workers.

jshen 16y ago
My wife happens to be a teacher in L.A. (not lausd). Her entry level salary was barely 40k and she is now in the 50k range after 6 years. I'm a programmer with less education, less years of experience, and I make more than double what she makes. If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. But, neither of our single data points says anything about the situation. I'm assuming most people on here took statistics and understand that both are meaningless. We need the average, and the standard deviation at a minimum to say anything meaningful.
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  > If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk about them too. Among other things, it's almost impossible for them to get fired and their raises don't seem to be connected to performance. They also get to take three months off during the summer, bringing their annualized salary up to about 70k. If you throw their pension plans into the mix, it is actually very profitable compared to most employment pursuits available to liberal arts majors. Also, it's hard to compare the deal they are getting versus the one you are getting, because unlike yours, the price on teachers' labor is not set in a market environment. You might also say that the labor of a construction worker or fast food cook is more back-breaking and intensive than yours, but ultimately that is not the criterion on which wages are decided. The same goes for level of education and experience. None of these are the sole factors that determine what an individual's labor is worth.
  - jbooth 16y ago
    If they have such a great deal, why aren't you a teacher?
    - houseabsolute 16y ago
      Different people have different tolerance for risk, different preferences for activity, different sets of cultivated skills etc. Mine line up better with programming than teaching, and I can make more doing it to boot. Earlier, you were claiming that teachers are getting a raw deal because you are paid so much better as a programmer. To put the previous paragraph in completely unambiguous terms, let me ask you this: "If programming is so great, why isn't your wife working as a programmer?" Does that really sound like a reasonable or relevant question to you?
      - jshen 16y ago
        Your confusing different commenters.
        houseabsolute 16y ago
        My apologies. I'll edit my post to reflect the reality of the situation. Edit: as it turns out, I can't, so you'll have to make do with my apologies. :)
  - jshen 16y ago
    most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what factors actually set programmer or ceo pay. Saying, "market factors" is just hand waving. Now on to the specifics. According to this article they probably aren't going to get the pension they were promised since it's insolvent. They don't get 3 months off, exaggerating won't help your point. It's closer to two months. I get 3 weeks off. So I'm still failing to see the posh deal. An insolvent pension, and an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money right now. That's a pretty lousy deal if you ask me.
- HaloZero 16y ago
  Programming is a very difficult field to enter and it is very lucrative. You can't really compare the programming job vs any regular government job. Consider that most employees in private areas are probably more desk jobs (not programming) they get equivalent salaries minus all the lush retirement.
  - jshen 16y ago
    I wouldn't call teaching a regular government desk job. In fact, it's rather absurd tobsuggest such a thing.
whyenot 16y ago
Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. They work in a city where it's difficult to buy a home for less than a million dollars. Contrary to your assertion, further highly specialized education beyond a bachelor's degree is required to be a police officer (hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department#Police_Academy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department... ). Also contrary to your assertion, it appears starting pay is no higher in Oakland than SF (hint: http://www.opdjobs.com/ http://www.opdjobs.com/ ). They perform a very important service and risk their lives doing it. They deserve every cent IMO.
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  > They work in a city where it's difficult to buy a home for less than a million dollars. Yet Starbucks baristas still get paid the same as anywhere else (modulo some minor cost of living adjustments) and don't get to retire at 50 with 90% of their last year's income (which should be a good deal more than the starting salary). > further highly specialized education beyond a bachelor's degree You should say "separate from," since all that is required to join is a high school diploma: http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1646 http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1646. Then, I suppose, you must attend police academy, but it's not clear from your links exactly how much time you have to spend there. Given that the mayor cancelled two thirds of their classes, either the force must have cut hiring by 66% or those classes are not required for all kinds of police duty. That "hint" bit was rude, I should know since I troll occasionally too, but you'd be better off avoiding it if you want people to listen to you. > Also contrary to your assertion, it appears starting pay is no higher in Oakland than SF. I believe my claim was about overall pay, not starting pay, for Oakland. That said, I don't have numbers to back that up. I can only say, "I heard it from Michael Krasny on Forum." Being that he seems to lean left, I don't see any reason for him to exaggerate the pay of unionized government workers, but it's possible he got it wrong or I am not remembering correctly. > They perform a very important service and risk their lives doing it. They deserve every cent IMO. Being a policeman is not really that risky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_officer#Line_of_duty_deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_officer#Line_of_duty_dea.... Pizza drivers are at greater risk of death and you don't see them getting paid six figures for their work. Politicians beholden to unions is a much better explanation. I do believe they deserve to get paid something, but I don't think their jobs are so hard that they should have money thrown at them the way they do. It's fine for you to "feel" the way you do, but to my eyes you haven't provided much rational justification for it.
WildUtah 16y ago
> You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? $400,000. Cops and some prison guards and firemen in most of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, and other poorly managed jurisdictions with public unions average $300,000 to $500,000 in total compensation. To be fair, the job does require a bachelor's degree and not just a high school diploma. And you usually need a good friend who can pull strings to get you hired, obviously. The mid career base salaries are about $150,000 and the pension plan usually are full final-year pay and benefits retirement at 45 or 50. That pension plan costs more in present value than the salary according to sane actuarial assumptions. Furthermore, there are effectively eight weeks of paid vacation, a short work week, generous overtime pay, and pensions are usually calculated based on final year pay including overtime and vacation cash-out so they can be well over official salary. State highway workers get paid considerably more than the market rate paid by contractors but not as much as cops.

jshen 16y ago

My wife happens to be a teacher in L.A. (not lausd). Her entry level salary was barely 40k and she is now in the 50k range after 6 years. I'm a programmer with less education, less years of experience, and I make more than double what she makes. If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. But, neither of our single data points says anything about the situation. I'm assuming most people on here took statistics and understand that both are meaningless. We need the average, and the standard deviation at a minimum to say anything meaningful.

houseabsolute 16y ago
> If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk about them too. Among other things, it's almost impossible for them to get fired and their raises don't seem to be connected to performance. They also get to take three months off during the summer, bringing their annualized salary up to about 70k. If you throw their pension plans into the mix, it is actually very profitable compared to most employment pursuits available to liberal arts majors. Also, it's hard to compare the deal they are getting versus the one you are getting, because unlike yours, the price on teachers' labor is not set in a market environment. You might also say that the labor of a construction worker or fast food cook is more back-breaking and intensive than yours, but ultimately that is not the criterion on which wages are decided. The same goes for level of education and experience. None of these are the sole factors that determine what an individual's labor is worth.
- jbooth 16y ago
  If they have such a great deal, why aren't you a teacher?
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    Different people have different tolerance for risk, different preferences for activity, different sets of cultivated skills etc. Mine line up better with programming than teaching, and I can make more doing it to boot. Earlier, you were claiming that teachers are getting a raw deal because you are paid so much better as a programmer. To put the previous paragraph in completely unambiguous terms, let me ask you this: "If programming is so great, why isn't your wife working as a programmer?" Does that really sound like a reasonable or relevant question to you?
    - jshen 16y ago
      Your confusing different commenters.
      - houseabsolute 16y ago
        My apologies. I'll edit my post to reflect the reality of the situation. Edit: as it turns out, I can't, so you'll have to make do with my apologies. :)
- jshen 16y ago
  most programmers pay isn't related to their performance, hell most ceos pay isn't related to their performance, so that's a red herring. I'd love to know what factors actually set programmer or ceo pay. Saying, "market factors" is just hand waving. Now on to the specifics. According to this article they probably aren't going to get the pension they were promised since it's insolvent. They don't get 3 months off, exaggerating won't help your point. It's closer to two months. I get 3 weeks off. So I'm still failing to see the posh deal. An insolvent pension, and an extra 5 weeks of vacation is traded for a loss of 60k of money right now. That's a pretty lousy deal if you ask me.
HaloZero 16y ago
Programming is a very difficult field to enter and it is very lucrative. You can't really compare the programming job vs any regular government job. Consider that most employees in private areas are probably more desk jobs (not programming) they get equivalent salaries minus all the lush retirement.
- jshen 16y ago
  I wouldn't call teaching a regular government desk job. In fact, it's rather absurd tobsuggest such a thing.

whyenot 16y ago

Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. They work in a city where it's difficult to buy a home for less than a million dollars. Contrary to your assertion, further highly specialized education beyond a bachelor's degree is required to be a police officer (hint: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department#Police_Academy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Police_Department... ). Also contrary to your assertion, it appears starting pay is no higher in Oakland than SF (hint: http://www.opdjobs.com/ http://www.opdjobs.com/ ). They perform a very important service and risk their lives doing it. They deserve every cent IMO.

houseabsolute 16y ago
> They work in a city where it's difficult to buy a home for less than a million dollars. Yet Starbucks baristas still get paid the same as anywhere else (modulo some minor cost of living adjustments) and don't get to retire at 50 with 90% of their last year's income (which should be a good deal more than the starting salary). > further highly specialized education beyond a bachelor's degree You should say "separate from," since all that is required to join is a high school diploma: http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1646 http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1646. Then, I suppose, you must attend police academy, but it's not clear from your links exactly how much time you have to spend there. Given that the mayor cancelled two thirds of their classes, either the force must have cut hiring by 66% or those classes are not required for all kinds of police duty. That "hint" bit was rude, I should know since I troll occasionally too, but you'd be better off avoiding it if you want people to listen to you. > Also contrary to your assertion, it appears starting pay is no higher in Oakland than SF. I believe my claim was about overall pay, not starting pay, for Oakland. That said, I don't have numbers to back that up. I can only say, "I heard it from Michael Krasny on Forum." Being that he seems to lean left, I don't see any reason for him to exaggerate the pay of unionized government workers, but it's possible he got it wrong or I am not remembering correctly. > They perform a very important service and risk their lives doing it. They deserve every cent IMO. Being a policeman is not really that risky. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_officer#Line_of_duty_deaths http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_officer#Line_of_duty_dea.... Pizza drivers are at greater risk of death and you don't see them getting paid six figures for their work. Politicians beholden to unions is a much better explanation. I do believe they deserve to get paid something, but I don't think their jobs are so hard that they should have money thrown at them the way they do. It's fine for you to "feel" the way you do, but to my eyes you haven't provided much rational justification for it.

WildUtah 16y ago

> You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? $400,000. Cops and some prison guards and firemen in most of New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, California, and other poorly managed jurisdictions with public unions average $300,000 to $500,000 in total compensation. To be fair, the job does require a bachelor's degree and not just a high school diploma. And you usually need a good friend who can pull strings to get you hired, obviously. The mid career base salaries are about $150,000 and the pension plan usually are full final-year pay and benefits retirement at 45 or 50. That pension plan costs more in present value than the salary according to sane actuarial assumptions. Furthermore, there are effectively eight weeks of paid vacation, a short work week, generous overtime pay, and pensions are usually calculated based on final year pay including overtime and vacation cash-out so they can be well over official salary. State highway workers get paid considerably more than the market rate paid by contractors but not as much as cops.