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i think this is a very insightful comment. i'm one of those people that spend a lot of time discussing and arguing about diversity and inclusion (here and irl)

i think this is a very insightful comment. i'm one of those people that spend a lot of time discussing and arguing about diversity and inclusion (here and irl) and what i wish people understood intimately what you allude to here >but because they're people for whom this society works well already, so there's no need for a revolution. it's very hard to convince someone for whom a system is working that there's potentially something immoral about perpetuating that system. the feeling is that since they're not proximally personally culpable that it's not a moral failing to participate but this is true >But the real cost is that our society has to bend to support them capital and resources allocated for wework is capital and resources that could have been allocated else where if our cultural priorities were different and therefore it's to the detriment of "abnormal" peoples that wework exists and persists. i know i'm basically recapitulating everything you've said but (clearly) i think it merits emphasis. this prompts the question: how do you do it? i think i'd be interested to know how you became sympathetic or partial if you're not from a marginalized community yourself (and we can take that offline) but this is hopeful as well >But the ideas they generate, they're just... normal. They're not really strange or weird or delightful. normative practices by definition normalize status quo. if in 50 years you still want to be wearing plaid, drinking craft beer, and listening to lcd soundsystem then go ahead and continue to exult in wework et al but otherwise you should try to include people that look very much different from you.

dictum 9y ago
> if in 50 years you still want to be wearing plaid, drinking craft beer, and listening to lcd soundsystem At risk of playing armchair psychologist, this is something I notice in American debates on diversity: people seem to be looking for what's in it for them. What's the hidden music genre I can turn into a trend and profit greatly? Will this traditional African dress make me less like some backwards bumpkin? I don't share the objection to "cultural appropriation" (I like sharing and remixing of cultures). I know it's not an exclusively American phenomenon. But it seems that people are always selling something, and I'm out of money.
thrav 9y ago
My arrival at most of what you’re talking about here as been through listening to the philosophize this podcast series on Sartre, Camus, Heidegger, Simone De Beauvoir, and the Frankfurt School. Through my own twisted path of self-discovery, I think I’d pretty well stumbled into Nietsche’s concept of the child. Shedding most of society’s weight, but not turning from its value entirely and sinking into nihilism. Life is fun. Work literally feels like a game I’m playing each day. But my wife asked me what the meaning of my life was to be. She said it felt haphazard and accidental in ways, and seemed to lack a cohesive directive. She was thinking more in terms of career aspirations, but it was a good question more generally. I’ll spare you the explanation I gave her, but say that in a nutshell it was personal success with a desired socially positive impact. Probably fairly common. The episodes outlined above made me rethink the level of impact I am responsible for. Prior to them, I thought doing some good and as little harm as possible was enough, if not exceptional. Listening to them made me feel the weight of what needs to change, and the responsibility that I have to help bring about that change. It’s not a small undertaking, and I’m probably not even crawling yet, but it’s a game I’m excited about playing.
zeth___ 9y ago
>otherwise you should try to include people that look very much different from you. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. - MLK Perhaps you should rethink your life choices when you're making offices "diverse", read exotic, for rich people to enjoy themselves in.
- mlevental 9y ago
  First of all "look" is colloquial for holistically be: "what does a democracy look like - it looks much different from DPRK". Second i have news for you: to first approximation on a global scale the easiest way to find someone that thinks differently from you is to find someone that looks different from you. Now sure if I bias my sample (picking people that look different from me but live in the bay area) then that's worthless and I need to investigate second order effects. Third i think there's something perverse about taking that line and trying to twist it to substantiate an argument for why we /shouldn't/ hire more black people (for example)
  - zeth___ 9y ago
    The idea that there are black people in the first place is a racist one. There is humanity, there are individuals and there are classes, anything else are fever dreams of centuries past. To try and fix original sin by making it into original virtue ends up in a new apartheid. There are no black people, there are no white people. Anyone who calls themselves a leftist should be pushing this line as hard as possible.
    - mlevental 9y ago
      i am as left as they come and what you're missing is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism
      - zeth___ 9y ago
        If race matters always why aren't we talking about the Saxons and the Normans of England. Two races which were segregated by law, with each village of Saxons having group guilt if any Norman was killed on their land. Race is a construct of the capitalists to divide the working class. That the American 'left' is the most enthusiastic promoter of race today just show what a wonderful return on investment the bourgeoisie got from privatizing the universities and then funding the research in social sciences that benefits them most: cultural, sexual and racial theory/criticism. Or as Marx put it: All industrial and commercial centres in England now have a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who forces down the standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker, he feels himself to be a member of the ruling nation and, therefore, makes himself a tool of his aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He harbours religious, social and national prejudices against him. His attitude towards him is roughly that of the poor whites to the niggers in the former slave states of the American Union. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of English rule in Ireland. This antagonism is kept artificially alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short by all the means at the disposal of the ruling class. This antagonism is the secret of the English working class’s impotence, despite its organisation. It is the secret of the maintenance of power by the capitalist class. And the latter is fully aware of this. https://archive.org/stream/MarxEngelsCollectedWorksVolume10MKarlMarx/Marx%20%26%20Engels%20Collected%20Works%20Volume%2043_%20L%20-%20Karl%20Marx_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/MarxEngelsCollectedWorksVolume10M...

dictum 9y ago

> if in 50 years you still want to be wearing plaid, drinking craft beer, and listening to lcd soundsystem At risk of playing armchair psychologist, this is something I notice in American debates on diversity: people seem to be looking for what's in it for them. What's the hidden music genre I can turn into a trend and profit greatly? Will this traditional African dress make me less like some backwards bumpkin? I don't share the objection to "cultural appropriation" (I like sharing and remixing of cultures). I know it's not an exclusively American phenomenon. But it seems that people are always selling something, and I'm out of money.

thrav 9y ago

My arrival at most of what you’re talking about here as been through listening to the philosophize this podcast series on Sartre, Camus, Heidegger, Simone De Beauvoir, and the Frankfurt School. Through my own twisted path of self-discovery, I think I’d pretty well stumbled into Nietsche’s concept of the child. Shedding most of society’s weight, but not turning from its value entirely and sinking into nihilism. Life is fun. Work literally feels like a game I’m playing each day. But my wife asked me what the meaning of my life was to be. She said it felt haphazard and accidental in ways, and seemed to lack a cohesive directive. She was thinking more in terms of career aspirations, but it was a good question more generally. I’ll spare you the explanation I gave her, but say that in a nutshell it was personal success with a desired socially positive impact. Probably fairly common. The episodes outlined above made me rethink the level of impact I am responsible for. Prior to them, I thought doing some good and as little harm as possible was enough, if not exceptional. Listening to them made me feel the weight of what needs to change, and the responsibility that I have to help bring about that change. It’s not a small undertaking, and I’m probably not even crawling yet, but it’s a game I’m excited about playing.

zeth___ 9y ago

>otherwise you should try to include people that look very much different from you. I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. - MLK Perhaps you should rethink your life choices when you're making offices "diverse", read exotic, for rich people to enjoy themselves in.

mlevental 9y ago
First of all "look" is colloquial for holistically be: "what does a democracy look like - it looks much different from DPRK". Second i have news for you: to first approximation on a global scale the easiest way to find someone that thinks differently from you is to find someone that looks different from you. Now sure if I bias my sample (picking people that look different from me but live in the bay area) then that's worthless and I need to investigate second order effects. Third i think there's something perverse about taking that line and trying to twist it to substantiate an argument for why we /shouldn't/ hire more black people (for example)
- zeth___ 9y ago
  The idea that there are black people in the first place is a racist one. There is humanity, there are individuals and there are classes, anything else are fever dreams of centuries past. To try and fix original sin by making it into original virtue ends up in a new apartheid. There are no black people, there are no white people. Anyone who calls themselves a leftist should be pushing this line as hard as possible.
  - mlevental 9y ago
    i am as left as they come and what you're missing is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_materialism
    - zeth___ 9y ago
      If race matters always why aren't we talking about the Saxons and the Normans of England. Two races which were segregated by law, with each village of Saxons having group guilt if any Norman was killed on their land. Race is a construct of the capitalists to divide the working class. That the American 'left' is the most enthusiastic promoter of race today just show what a wonderful return on investment the bourgeoisie got from privatizing the universities and then funding the research in social sciences that benefits them most: cultural, sexual and racial theory/criticism. Or as Marx put it: All industrial and commercial centres in England now have a working class divided into two hostile camps, English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who forces down the standard of life. In relation to the Irish worker, he feels himself to be a member of the ruling nation and, therefore, makes himself a tool of his aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus strengthening their domination over himself. He harbours religious, social and national prejudices against him. His attitude towards him is roughly that of the poor whites to the niggers in the former slave states of the American Union. The Irishman pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of English rule in Ireland. This antagonism is kept artificially alive and intensified by the press, the pulpit, the comic papers, in short by all the means at the disposal of the ruling class. This antagonism is the secret of the English working class’s impotence, despite its organisation. It is the secret of the maintenance of power by the capitalist class. And the latter is fully aware of this. https://archive.org/stream/MarxEngelsCollectedWorksVolume10MKarlMarx/Marx%20%26%20Engels%20Collected%20Works%20Volume%2043_%20L%20-%20Karl%20Marx_djvu.txt https://archive.org/stream/MarxEngelsCollectedWorksVolume10M...