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This data entirely negates that claim. In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative

This data entirely negates that claim. In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces, they simply self-select not to participate in certain fields (on average). If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem.

geofft 9y ago
> In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces The data does not support correlating those two. "Gender equality" in this report refers to the factors in Table 1 at http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/measuring-the-global-gender-gap/ http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/mea... , which is about things like life expectancy and number of female politicians and salary - not about disrespect, unrightful criticism, and scrutiny in technical fields on the basis of sex.
- jhall1468 9y ago
  > not about disrespect, unrightful criticism, and scrutiny in technical fields on the basis of sex. Well since these are claims you can undoubted produce data that all of these issues are significant across the entire field?
  - geofft 9y ago
    Sure, give me a research lab and some funding. I don't know that there have been many rigorous studies across all of STEM that measure this effect and give an answer one way or another. For tech in particular, see the Kapor Center's report: https://www.kaporcenter.org/tech-leavers/ https://www.kaporcenter.org/tech-leavers/ (which, it should be noted, reports on people who have left tech: the percentages in that report should not be read as the fraction of people in tech who decide to leave).
    - mpweiher 9y ago
      For studies like these, it actually helps to look at the data rather than just skim the headlines/talkimg points, which tend to cherry pick to support the narrative. For example, when "left due to unfair treatment" is unpacked by group, white women are the lowest percentage! (28% vs. 38% for white/asian men).
      - geofft 9y ago
        Yes, that's true. Again this is the percentage thing I mentioned—the study is not claiming that more white and Asian men leave because of unfair treatment than women, it's claiming that of those who leave, more white and Asian men report unfair treatment as a motivation than women do.
        depressedpanda 9y ago
        So this study shows that unfair treatment is a less important reason for women leaving tech than it is for Asian and white men. Why, then, are other people commenting here claiming that bad treatment of women is the main reason they leave tech, and at alarming numbers, no less?
        geofft 9y ago
        If the raw fraction of women leaving is much higher than it is for Asian and white men, then the net effect is that a higher percentage of women are leaving because of unfair treatment than men are. Also, it's certainly the case that unfair treatment is a problem worth solving regardless of gender. (I don't think the design of that particular study was equipped to answer the question of what the raw fraction is / whether the numbers are in fact alarming, so people who are making that claim are not making it solely on the basis of information in that study.)
        naasking 9y ago
        That site certainly seems to be though, given the bold quotes plastered everywhere.
- lulmerchant 9y ago
  Of course it does. Feminism is ingrained into the cultures of these countries. The data overwhelmingly shows that when you give men and women equal opportunities and the freedom to make their own choices, that men and women, on average, make different choices. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. Apart from those who buy into the world view that the only two groups in any society are the oppressed and their oppressors, which is clearly just toxic bullshit.
  - geofft 9y ago
    > Feminism is ingrained into the cultures of these countries. Given that the leader of the free world has said that he's not a feminist, I'm not sure I would say that it's ingrained into the culture. It's a recent cultural phenomenon of these countries, sure. But Western civilization has a much deeper culture of patrilineal succession, of the priesthood being restricted to men, of only men having political representation, of the father being the head of the household, etc. That stuff doesn't evaporate from a culture quickly, and even today many of those are strongly believed by huge parts of Western civilization.
    - lulmerchant 9y ago
      I'll ignore the irrelevant marxist talking point and trump references, and redirect you back to the data. The Nordic countries always lead in these stats. These are the countries that are the most egalitarian in the world, where 3rd wave feminism forms a major part of social policy, where women have an equal level of opportunity to men and the freedom to choose their own paths in life. The data shows that under these conditions, this freedom has a negative correlation to women choosing a career in STEM. You can't say that this is a remnant of some patriarchal system of oppression, because as women's freedom has increased in those countries, their participation in STEM has decreased.
      - Aaron1011 9y ago
        > I'll ignore the irrelevant marxist talking point Which part of the parent comment was a "marxist talking point"?
- naasking 9y ago
  This trend hold in even the most progressive countries. Do you seriously think that "STEM across the world in multiple different cultures are prejudiced against women in precisely the same ways so as to produce the same gender disparities in the same fields" is a more reasonable explanation than there being some other factor, like some kind of inherent disinterest in these subjects? Don't take my word for it though, there are actually plenty of studies showing that the "people vs. things" theory far better explains these gender disparities.
jacobsheehy 9y ago
I think you may have misread the article. It does not present the data you think it does. > In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces That is absolutely not what a high level of gender equality means. Countries that have "higher levels of gender equality" do not guarantee or even suggest any likelihood of not having these negative forces in a girl or woman's life. (I would privately posit that it may be the opposite, in fact - that perhaps those countries would find that in private home lives, those forces are as strong or stronger than elsewhere. But I don't know this, I'm speculating on that point.) Often the forces in a person's life are from close friends or their family - these are not measured in this article and certainly have an impact on how people choose their careers and interests in life. You also made up the idea that they are "self-selecting" to not be a part of the system. The article does not make that claim - you did, out of thin air.
aspaceman 9y ago
The article never claims that areas of high gender equality do not have these negative forces. In fact, my main issue with this article is how it defines "gender equality". > If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem. I never made any such claim - you have twisted my words in order to make me appear irrational and prejudiced. I claim that women do not participate in tech because they feel actively ostracized and unwelcome. More women would help alleviate this issue. Do not put words into my mouth instead of addressing the statements that I make.
- hyperdunc 9y ago
  If a woman is going to be put off participating in tech because she feels unwelcome then she probably isn't that interested in tech to begin with. If people do what they love they will be driven to overcome barriers, perceived and real.
  - aspaceman 9y ago
    This is a horribly un-empathetic position to take that ignores most women's testimonials. Reading the accounts of women in tech who have been forced out would not lead me to believe that they just aren't that interested. They are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives. Being so skeptical of these opinions because they're in the minority, rather than evaluating their actual merit is horribly toxic. Also this is just a damn job. You don't have to love it completely to want to do it. I sure as hell don't love programming wholeheartedly but I still do it as a career—I'm one of those folks who doesn't do side projects when they get off the clock.
    - hyperdunc 9y ago
      I've no doubt certain individuals have been given a hard time, as in the accounts you've read. But I don't believe for a second that women "are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives."
neaanopri 9y ago
Or if you cannot allow a minority to participate in your field without becoming hostile to them, maybe the problem isn't with the minority?

geofft 9y ago

> In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces The data does not support correlating those two. "Gender equality" in this report refers to the factors in Table 1 at http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/measuring-the-global-gender-gap/ http://reports.weforum.org/global-gender-gap-report-2016/mea... , which is about things like life expectancy and number of female politicians and salary - not about disrespect, unrightful criticism, and scrutiny in technical fields on the basis of sex.

jhall1468 9y ago
> not about disrespect, unrightful criticism, and scrutiny in technical fields on the basis of sex. Well since these are claims you can undoubted produce data that all of these issues are significant across the entire field?
- geofft 9y ago
  Sure, give me a research lab and some funding. I don't know that there have been many rigorous studies across all of STEM that measure this effect and give an answer one way or another. For tech in particular, see the Kapor Center's report: https://www.kaporcenter.org/tech-leavers/ https://www.kaporcenter.org/tech-leavers/ (which, it should be noted, reports on people who have left tech: the percentages in that report should not be read as the fraction of people in tech who decide to leave).
  - mpweiher 9y ago
    For studies like these, it actually helps to look at the data rather than just skim the headlines/talkimg points, which tend to cherry pick to support the narrative. For example, when "left due to unfair treatment" is unpacked by group, white women are the lowest percentage! (28% vs. 38% for white/asian men).
    - geofft 9y ago
      Yes, that's true. Again this is the percentage thing I mentioned—the study is not claiming that more white and Asian men leave because of unfair treatment than women, it's claiming that of those who leave, more white and Asian men report unfair treatment as a motivation than women do.
      - depressedpanda 9y ago
        So this study shows that unfair treatment is a less important reason for women leaving tech than it is for Asian and white men. Why, then, are other people commenting here claiming that bad treatment of women is the main reason they leave tech, and at alarming numbers, no less?
        geofft 9y ago
        If the raw fraction of women leaving is much higher than it is for Asian and white men, then the net effect is that a higher percentage of women are leaving because of unfair treatment than men are. Also, it's certainly the case that unfair treatment is a problem worth solving regardless of gender. (I don't think the design of that particular study was equipped to answer the question of what the raw fraction is / whether the numbers are in fact alarming, so people who are making that claim are not making it solely on the basis of information in that study.)
        naasking 9y ago
        That site certainly seems to be though, given the bold quotes plastered everywhere.
lulmerchant 9y ago
Of course it does. Feminism is ingrained into the cultures of these countries. The data overwhelmingly shows that when you give men and women equal opportunities and the freedom to make their own choices, that men and women, on average, make different choices. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anybody. Apart from those who buy into the world view that the only two groups in any society are the oppressed and their oppressors, which is clearly just toxic bullshit.
- geofft 9y ago
  > Feminism is ingrained into the cultures of these countries. Given that the leader of the free world has said that he's not a feminist, I'm not sure I would say that it's ingrained into the culture. It's a recent cultural phenomenon of these countries, sure. But Western civilization has a much deeper culture of patrilineal succession, of the priesthood being restricted to men, of only men having political representation, of the father being the head of the household, etc. That stuff doesn't evaporate from a culture quickly, and even today many of those are strongly believed by huge parts of Western civilization.
  - lulmerchant 9y ago
    I'll ignore the irrelevant marxist talking point and trump references, and redirect you back to the data. The Nordic countries always lead in these stats. These are the countries that are the most egalitarian in the world, where 3rd wave feminism forms a major part of social policy, where women have an equal level of opportunity to men and the freedom to choose their own paths in life. The data shows that under these conditions, this freedom has a negative correlation to women choosing a career in STEM. You can't say that this is a remnant of some patriarchal system of oppression, because as women's freedom has increased in those countries, their participation in STEM has decreased.
    - Aaron1011 9y ago
      > I'll ignore the irrelevant marxist talking point Which part of the parent comment was a "marxist talking point"?
naasking 9y ago
This trend hold in even the most progressive countries. Do you seriously think that "STEM across the world in multiple different cultures are prejudiced against women in precisely the same ways so as to produce the same gender disparities in the same fields" is a more reasonable explanation than there being some other factor, like some kind of inherent disinterest in these subjects? Don't take my word for it though, there are actually plenty of studies showing that the "people vs. things" theory far better explains these gender disparities.

jacobsheehy 9y ago

I think you may have misread the article. It does not present the data you think it does. > In countries with the highest levels of gender equality, where women are least likely to experience any of these negative forces That is absolutely not what a high level of gender equality means. Countries that have "higher levels of gender equality" do not guarantee or even suggest any likelihood of not having these negative forces in a girl or woman's life. (I would privately posit that it may be the opposite, in fact - that perhaps those countries would find that in private home lives, those forces are as strong or stronger than elsewhere. But I don't know this, I'm speculating on that point.) Often the forces in a person's life are from close friends or their family - these are not measured in this article and certainly have an impact on how people choose their careers and interests in life. You also made up the idea that they are "self-selecting" to not be a part of the system. The article does not make that claim - you did, out of thin air.

aspaceman 9y ago

The article never claims that areas of high gender equality do not have these negative forces. In fact, my main issue with this article is how it defines "gender equality". > If you cannot participate in a field where not enough of the people look and act like you, then perhaps you have the problem. I never made any such claim - you have twisted my words in order to make me appear irrational and prejudiced. I claim that women do not participate in tech because they feel actively ostracized and unwelcome. More women would help alleviate this issue. Do not put words into my mouth instead of addressing the statements that I make.

hyperdunc 9y ago
If a woman is going to be put off participating in tech because she feels unwelcome then she probably isn't that interested in tech to begin with. If people do what they love they will be driven to overcome barriers, perceived and real.
- aspaceman 9y ago
  This is a horribly un-empathetic position to take that ignores most women's testimonials. Reading the accounts of women in tech who have been forced out would not lead me to believe that they just aren't that interested. They are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives. Being so skeptical of these opinions because they're in the minority, rather than evaluating their actual merit is horribly toxic. Also this is just a damn job. You don't have to love it completely to want to do it. I sure as hell don't love programming wholeheartedly but I still do it as a career—I'm one of those folks who doesn't do side projects when they get off the clock.
  - hyperdunc 9y ago
    I've no doubt certain individuals have been given a hard time, as in the accounts you've read. But I don't believe for a second that women "are systematically encouraged to get out, and do something else with their lives."

neaanopri 9y ago

Or if you cannot allow a minority to participate in your field without becoming hostile to them, maybe the problem isn't with the minority?