3 ms·

However you feel about Jordan Peterson, he brings up this fact all the time, esp w/ regards to Scandinavia, would define this phenomenon as the difference betwe

by platz 9y ago

However you feel about Jordan Peterson, he brings up this fact all the time, esp w/ regards to Scandinavia, would define this phenomenon as the difference between equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome, and that the genders, when provided the option, tend towards different preferences (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses), and that environment factors can skew these natural preferences in either direction. raises the question of _why_ women in these egalitarian societies are currently are selecting against STEM. Because for example there are plenty of female accountants, which is not normally thought of as a "people" business. So perhaps the environmental factors could change the preferences. Whether the overall result is preferable for society, I have no idea.

Baeocystin 9y ago
I realize this is an anecdote, but one of my long-term clients is a tax/accounting office run and staffed almost entirely by women. When I started working there, I fully expected to find it tedious and drab. It turns out that it is surprisingly fun- they get clients that run all kinds of small businesses, we meet, talk about things, see what we can do to help them... Knowing the tax code & GAAP is important, but they turn out to be only the means to a far more social end. Really changed my mind in a positive way.
kenning 9y ago
> (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses) How about doctors vs nurses? I think this is a much more relevant comparison. In the united states (sorry) male doctors outnumber female by about 2:1 [1], while female nurses outnumber male nurses by more than 10:1 [2]. Comparing these two professions it's a lot easier to make the argument that women are implicitly encouraged to set their expectations lower than men, who actually may feel emasculated as a nurse. STEM jobs are seen as more difficult to train for and to achieve than non-STEM jobs, similar to the job of a doctor compared to the job of a nurse. If you're confused as to why women choose 'difficult' jobs less often, I hope this line of thinking is convincing... [1] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gend... [2] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-number-of-professionally-active-nurses-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-number-of-pr...
- platz 9y ago
  > you're confused as to why women choose 'difficult' jobs less often so, all those high-power, highly-paid, female lawyers are likely to have just breezed right though?
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - kenning 9y ago
    US lawyers are 64% men, 36% women https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/marketing/women/current_glance_statistics_january2017.authcheckdam.pdf https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/marketing/women/... The numbers get worse as the position's status gets higher. Why did you even post this acerbic and wrong reply that ignored the whole point of what I was saying?
- LyndsySimon 9y ago
  Why the assumption that nurses are "lower" than doctors?
  - serf 9y ago
    lesser pay rates on average, less training required, more nurses than doctors exist in the work force. That doesn't make the profession less noble or endearing or anything -- but by any metric that we use to judge modern occupations, a nurse ranks lower than a doctor in most every way besides number of hours worked.
  - mwilliaams 9y ago
    Well, doctors are in charge of nurses. They have superior training. In increasing superiority, you have EMTs, then nurses, then doctors.
- Pyxl101 9y ago
  Let's explore some other possible theories for the gender ratio of doctors and nurses. What if it was the case that men more than women are attracted to the most demanding jobs? And women more than men favor family-friendly hours and work life-balance? If that was the case, then it could explain why men more than women become doctors, and women nurses: because becoming a doctor is significantly more demanding than becoming a nurse. Getting through medical school and residency requires absolutely horrendous working hours including night shifts, and extremely long work shifts that seem unreasonable or unsafe to me, but that doctors have just accepted. Becoming a medical doctor definitely seems like it's in the upper echelon of demanding jobs. Within the field of medicine, men also disproportionately select the most demanding specialties like surgery while female doctors are more likely to become pediatricians. The theory that men and women have different preferences concerning demanding jobs and work-life balance has been scientifically studied, and there's evidence in support of it. I'll share a quote from one publication that contains citations to further studies: "Women, careers, and work-life preferences": > The majority of working women seek a large degree of work-life balance (Hakim, 2005), certainly more than men do. Women are more likely to ask for shorter work hours than to ask for higher pay or promotion (Babcock & Laschever, 2003). https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2011/SPP457/um/23632422/Hakim_2006.pdf https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2011/SPP457/um/23632422/Hakim...

by platz 9y ago

Baeocystin 9y ago

I realize this is an anecdote, but one of my long-term clients is a tax/accounting office run and staffed almost entirely by women. When I started working there, I fully expected to find it tedious and drab. It turns out that it is surprisingly fun- they get clients that run all kinds of small businesses, we meet, talk about things, see what we can do to help them... Knowing the tax code & GAAP is important, but they turn out to be only the means to a far more social end. Really changed my mind in a positive way.

kenning 9y ago

> (e.g. bricklayers vs nurses) How about doctors vs nurses? I think this is a much more relevant comparison. In the united states (sorry) male doctors outnumber female by about 2:1 [1], while female nurses outnumber male nurses by more than 10:1 [2]. Comparing these two professions it's a lot easier to make the argument that women are implicitly encouraged to set their expectations lower than men, who actually may feel emasculated as a nurse. STEM jobs are seen as more difficult to train for and to achieve than non-STEM jobs, similar to the job of a doctor compared to the job of a nurse. If you're confused as to why women choose 'difficult' jobs less often, I hope this line of thinking is convincing... [1] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/physicians-by-gend... [2] https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-number-of-professionally-active-nurses-by-gender/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/total-number-of-pr...

platz 9y ago
> you're confused as to why women choose 'difficult' jobs less often so, all those high-power, highly-paid, female lawyers are likely to have just breezed right though?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- kenning 9y ago
  US lawyers are 64% men, 36% women https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/marketing/women/current_glance_statistics_january2017.authcheckdam.pdf https://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/aba/marketing/women/... The numbers get worse as the position's status gets higher. Why did you even post this acerbic and wrong reply that ignored the whole point of what I was saying?
LyndsySimon 9y ago
Why the assumption that nurses are "lower" than doctors?
- serf 9y ago
  lesser pay rates on average, less training required, more nurses than doctors exist in the work force. That doesn't make the profession less noble or endearing or anything -- but by any metric that we use to judge modern occupations, a nurse ranks lower than a doctor in most every way besides number of hours worked.
- mwilliaams 9y ago
  Well, doctors are in charge of nurses. They have superior training. In increasing superiority, you have EMTs, then nurses, then doctors.
Pyxl101 9y ago
Let's explore some other possible theories for the gender ratio of doctors and nurses. What if it was the case that men more than women are attracted to the most demanding jobs? And women more than men favor family-friendly hours and work life-balance? If that was the case, then it could explain why men more than women become doctors, and women nurses: because becoming a doctor is significantly more demanding than becoming a nurse. Getting through medical school and residency requires absolutely horrendous working hours including night shifts, and extremely long work shifts that seem unreasonable or unsafe to me, but that doctors have just accepted. Becoming a medical doctor definitely seems like it's in the upper echelon of demanding jobs. Within the field of medicine, men also disproportionately select the most demanding specialties like surgery while female doctors are more likely to become pediatricians. The theory that men and women have different preferences concerning demanding jobs and work-life balance has been scientifically studied, and there's evidence in support of it. I'll share a quote from one publication that contains citations to further studies: "Women, careers, and work-life preferences": > The majority of working women seek a large degree of work-life balance (Hakim, 2005), certainly more than men do. Women are more likely to ask for shorter work hours than to ask for higher pay or promotion (Babcock & Laschever, 2003). https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2011/SPP457/um/23632422/Hakim_2006.pdf https://is.muni.cz/el/1423/jaro2011/SPP457/um/23632422/Hakim...