4 ms·

This level of surveillance is a shame given that by luck of never being invaded by the Nazis there's no ID cards in the UK. Somehow also people managed to stop

by icc97 9y ago

This level of surveillance is a shame given that by luck of never being invaded by the Nazis there's no ID cards in the UK. Somehow also people managed to stop attempts to get ID cards introduced. It might even be because of this. That is, it's easy for other European governments to track people as they have to carry ID at all times. Because the UK government are worried about the lack of this, they go down the CCTV route.

bayerrr 9y ago
As a German, you could not be more wrong with your idea about ID cards. ID cards are not used to track your movement. There is no need to show an ID to the police unless they have suspicion that you committed a crime and confront you. There are no passport controls along roads. There is a huge difference between the scales at which passport controls and CCTV can be executed, too, because passport controls require work by a police officer, whereas CCTV can be automated with face recognition. Our police is understaffed, too, you rarely see them. Whenever you use your ID card it is to buy alcohol or enter a concert, and police do not check the ID, but an employee of the venue. The employees just check the date of birth if you look like a young person, and sometimes if the picture is matching your face.
- dozzie 9y ago
  > As a German, you could not be more wrong [...] Why do you think he's German?
  - icc97 9y ago
    They don't, I'm assuming they're speaking as a German. I'm a Brit living in Belgium. I see the difference and I wish I could have the privacy of no ID cards back.
    - dozzie 9y ago
      > They don't They do, or at least that's what they said.
      - andrewaylett 9y ago
        No, they claimed to be German, and _in that capacity_ responded to their parent.
        dozzie 9y ago
        Not really. bayerrr said to icc97: > As a German, you could not be more wrong [...] bayerrr claimed that icc97 was German (this is how this grammatical construction works).
        icc97 9y ago
        There is an inferred "Speaking as a German", so the author is a letting me know they're German. But also as you pointed out it makes no sense for them to assume I'm German, but it does make sense if they are German. So I'd just assume the version that makes sense.
        dozzie 9y ago
        > There is an inferred "Speaking as a German", so the author is a letting me know they're German. Yes, there is the "speaking" part inferred, but the grammar still does not work like that. As a supposedly educated English native speaker, you should know better. If I said: "As an idiot, you're wrong", I could not possibly claim that I called me an idiot. Why suddenly the subject would change in the very same sentence structure?
        yesenadam 9y ago
        [Opinions expressed may not be those of the author] As a lover of respectful exchanges on here, there's something slightly objectionable about your tone in this thread. As a rather tiresome pedant, you should stop hassling and lecturing people over nothing. Yes, the original construction "As a German" was kinda awkward, but everyone seems to know what they meant, so why go on about it. Not sure what your problem is. As an intruder to this thread, it's not really my business anyway. As a participant, it's more your domain. As a reader, half of what you say is pretty confusing to me. As an HN-ite, I'm sure you can do better in the future.
- icc97 9y ago
  I'm talking about when the police stop you. I live in Belgium and I've seen the oppressive stop and searches the police do on buses. They come on and haul people off. You are required to have an ID on you at all times. If you don't have an ID on you you've committed an offence. It makes it very easy for police to find identities of people they question. In the UK you have the privacy that you haven't committed an offence by not having an ID so the police can't detain you. So you can just give a fake address and the police can't do anything.
  - brokenmachine 9y ago
    > So you can just give a fake address and the police can't do anything. That sounds like a dangerous strategy. Surely lying to police is an offence. You'd be better off asking what crime you are suspected of committing first, and if there is none, declining to answer. Of course, police probably wouldn't like that strategy much either.
ljm 9y ago
The UK government has an unhealthy obsession with surveillance but ID cards are a strange target. They offer nothing except convenience, considering if you ever want to buy alcohol or travel abroad as a Brit, then you have to get a driving license and a passport. The end result is that something as simple as proving who you are on a document, or renewing your driving license, requires that you provide every address you've lived at for 3 years and essentially get a credit check. Electoral roll data is sold to third parties and is used for junk mail as much as it is identity checking. An ID card would put that entire business venture to an end, because your personal ID number and embedded certificates would be more than enough to prove you are who you say you are. This is comparatively a blessing on the continent, where many EU countries have updated their tech. Being a Brit living around Europe for some years, the hoops I have to jump through to prove who I am in the UK are an incredible annoyance and my letter box is already filling with unwanted solicitations. I'm probably being tracked _more_ than I was with my EU ID cards!
- icc97 9y ago
  Life with an ID card is nice and easy. But you have no chance of anonymity. Sure your data gets sold, but if you're careful and you care about it you can keep your anonymity. That's a precious thing that you can never have with ID cards because you're illegal in most of the rest of Europe if you don't have one.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Yes give the police have more excuse to stop and ask for "papers please" guess which type of citizen will be asked for this.
  - ljm 9y ago
    The police don’t do that in the first place, it’s a paranoid myth that ignores the serious infringement on privacy in the UK. Meanwhile those on an anonymity crusade have to show their phone provider legit ID (driving license, passport) to open up a porn blocker and provide every ID provider in the country evidence of where they’ve lived in 3 years in order to get anywhere. Meanwhile the police push for unfettered access to government databases. The police aren’t stopping and searching because they need an ID card to ask for. They have plenty to go off already.

by icc97 9y ago

bayerrr 9y ago

As a German, you could not be more wrong with your idea about ID cards. ID cards are not used to track your movement. There is no need to show an ID to the police unless they have suspicion that you committed a crime and confront you. There are no passport controls along roads. There is a huge difference between the scales at which passport controls and CCTV can be executed, too, because passport controls require work by a police officer, whereas CCTV can be automated with face recognition. Our police is understaffed, too, you rarely see them. Whenever you use your ID card it is to buy alcohol or enter a concert, and police do not check the ID, but an employee of the venue. The employees just check the date of birth if you look like a young person, and sometimes if the picture is matching your face.

dozzie 9y ago
> As a German, you could not be more wrong [...] Why do you think he's German?
- icc97 9y ago
  They don't, I'm assuming they're speaking as a German. I'm a Brit living in Belgium. I see the difference and I wish I could have the privacy of no ID cards back.
  - dozzie 9y ago
    > They don't They do, or at least that's what they said.
    - andrewaylett 9y ago
      No, they claimed to be German, and _in that capacity_ responded to their parent.
      - dozzie 9y ago
        Not really. bayerrr said to icc97: > As a German, you could not be more wrong [...] bayerrr claimed that icc97 was German (this is how this grammatical construction works).
        icc97 9y ago
        There is an inferred "Speaking as a German", so the author is a letting me know they're German. But also as you pointed out it makes no sense for them to assume I'm German, but it does make sense if they are German. So I'd just assume the version that makes sense.
        dozzie 9y ago
        > There is an inferred "Speaking as a German", so the author is a letting me know they're German. Yes, there is the "speaking" part inferred, but the grammar still does not work like that. As a supposedly educated English native speaker, you should know better. If I said: "As an idiot, you're wrong", I could not possibly claim that I called me an idiot. Why suddenly the subject would change in the very same sentence structure?
        yesenadam 9y ago
        [Opinions expressed may not be those of the author] As a lover of respectful exchanges on here, there's something slightly objectionable about your tone in this thread. As a rather tiresome pedant, you should stop hassling and lecturing people over nothing. Yes, the original construction "As a German" was kinda awkward, but everyone seems to know what they meant, so why go on about it. Not sure what your problem is. As an intruder to this thread, it's not really my business anyway. As a participant, it's more your domain. As a reader, half of what you say is pretty confusing to me. As an HN-ite, I'm sure you can do better in the future.
icc97 9y ago
I'm talking about when the police stop you. I live in Belgium and I've seen the oppressive stop and searches the police do on buses. They come on and haul people off. You are required to have an ID on you at all times. If you don't have an ID on you you've committed an offence. It makes it very easy for police to find identities of people they question. In the UK you have the privacy that you haven't committed an offence by not having an ID so the police can't detain you. So you can just give a fake address and the police can't do anything.
- brokenmachine 9y ago
  > So you can just give a fake address and the police can't do anything. That sounds like a dangerous strategy. Surely lying to police is an offence. You'd be better off asking what crime you are suspected of committing first, and if there is none, declining to answer. Of course, police probably wouldn't like that strategy much either.

ljm 9y ago

The UK government has an unhealthy obsession with surveillance but ID cards are a strange target. They offer nothing except convenience, considering if you ever want to buy alcohol or travel abroad as a Brit, then you have to get a driving license and a passport. The end result is that something as simple as proving who you are on a document, or renewing your driving license, requires that you provide every address you've lived at for 3 years and essentially get a credit check. Electoral roll data is sold to third parties and is used for junk mail as much as it is identity checking. An ID card would put that entire business venture to an end, because your personal ID number and embedded certificates would be more than enough to prove you are who you say you are. This is comparatively a blessing on the continent, where many EU countries have updated their tech. Being a Brit living around Europe for some years, the hoops I have to jump through to prove who I am in the UK are an incredible annoyance and my letter box is already filling with unwanted solicitations. I'm probably being tracked _more_ than I was with my EU ID cards!

icc97 9y ago
Life with an ID card is nice and easy. But you have no chance of anonymity. Sure your data gets sold, but if you're careful and you care about it you can keep your anonymity. That's a precious thing that you can never have with ID cards because you're illegal in most of the rest of Europe if you don't have one.
walshemj 9y ago
Yes give the police have more excuse to stop and ask for "papers please" guess which type of citizen will be asked for this.
- ljm 9y ago
  The police don’t do that in the first place, it’s a paranoid myth that ignores the serious infringement on privacy in the UK. Meanwhile those on an anonymity crusade have to show their phone provider legit ID (driving license, passport) to open up a porn blocker and provide every ID provider in the country evidence of where they’ve lived in 3 years in order to get anywhere. Meanwhile the police push for unfettered access to government databases. The police aren’t stopping and searching because they need an ID card to ask for. They have plenty to go off already.