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Isn't it a failure of a decentralized system the fact that most, if not all, persons using it end up depending on a centralized system?

zeroxfe 9y ago
> Isn't it a failure of a decentralized system the fact that most, if not all, persons using it end up depending on a centralized system? The centralized system you refer to here is the status quo (banks, fiat currencies, etc.) For all practical purposes, you can't bootstrap a new decentralized monetary system without depending on an existing one -- value needs to be transferrable between the two entities until most of the world has migrated. This isn't a failure of decentralized systems -- it's just the cost of any large-scale transformation with huge powerful incumbents.
- Domenic_S 9y ago
  > This isn't a failure of decentralized systems -- it's just the cost of any large-scale transformation with huge powerful incumbents. This is equivocation bordering on intentional dishonesty. GP is saying that without engaging the incumbents, the decentralized system would have absorbed his money and given him nothing in return. That is in no possible way a win for decentralization. Crypto proponents assert that the world is better without centralized currency/money systems. Yet when push comes to shove, people have been forced to engage with the centralized systems in order to force the people behind the decentralized systems to do the right thing.
  - DennisP 9y ago
    > without engaging the incumbents, the decentralized system would have absorbed his money and given him nothing I don't see how that follows, given that the failure was at VISA, a centralized system, in its interaction with Coinbase, another centralized system. The decentralized cryptocurrencies continue to work as designed.
    - spookthesunset 9y ago
      > The decentralized cryptocurrencies continue to work as designed. Well then they aren't very well designed, are they... I mean, if they don't interface with the real world in a workable way, who's at fault?
bhaak 9y ago
Sure. But depending on how your opinion on cryptocurrencies is, you could either say it's proof that it's not working or that it's not working yet. These problems occur because you still have to deal with "legacy" currencies. If everything would be conducted in cryptocurrencies, you wouldn't have any of those. Although I'm not convinced that this is a likely future. I'd rather expect banks to offer cryptocurrency accounts with conversions. Ironically, another centralized solution but at least a regulated one.
- beefield 9y ago
  > I'd rather expect banks to offer cryptocurrency accounts Yes. And then I expect that someone figures out that it is not actually necessary to transfer my crypto to my coffee vendor for cup of coffee, but as we both trust the bank, we just tell the bank to move some crypto from my account to the coffee vendor's account. Then, I expect that someone figures out that it would be cheaper (well, actually bank would be willing to pay to borrow my crypto) to keep my crypto in bank if I let the bank to lend that forward for interest. Finally, I expect that someone figures out that the raison d'etre of crypto, fixed monetary supply just broke down, as now banks can "create" "cryptocurrency" at will.
oculusthrift 9y ago
yes and that’s why there are 4 or 5 distinct decentralized exchange projects in development. The second a good one appears people will swarm to it.
nimchimpsky 9y ago
Failing, or growing. You decide.

zeroxfe 9y ago

> Isn't it a failure of a decentralized system the fact that most, if not all, persons using it end up depending on a centralized system? The centralized system you refer to here is the status quo (banks, fiat currencies, etc.) For all practical purposes, you can't bootstrap a new decentralized monetary system without depending on an existing one -- value needs to be transferrable between the two entities until most of the world has migrated. This isn't a failure of decentralized systems -- it's just the cost of any large-scale transformation with huge powerful incumbents.

Domenic_S 9y ago
> This isn't a failure of decentralized systems -- it's just the cost of any large-scale transformation with huge powerful incumbents. This is equivocation bordering on intentional dishonesty. GP is saying that without engaging the incumbents, the decentralized system would have absorbed his money and given him nothing in return. That is in no possible way a win for decentralization. Crypto proponents assert that the world is better without centralized currency/money systems. Yet when push comes to shove, people have been forced to engage with the centralized systems in order to force the people behind the decentralized systems to do the right thing.
- DennisP 9y ago
  > without engaging the incumbents, the decentralized system would have absorbed his money and given him nothing I don't see how that follows, given that the failure was at VISA, a centralized system, in its interaction with Coinbase, another centralized system. The decentralized cryptocurrencies continue to work as designed.
  - spookthesunset 9y ago
    > The decentralized cryptocurrencies continue to work as designed. Well then they aren't very well designed, are they... I mean, if they don't interface with the real world in a workable way, who's at fault?

bhaak 9y ago

Sure. But depending on how your opinion on cryptocurrencies is, you could either say it's proof that it's not working or that it's not working yet. These problems occur because you still have to deal with "legacy" currencies. If everything would be conducted in cryptocurrencies, you wouldn't have any of those. Although I'm not convinced that this is a likely future. I'd rather expect banks to offer cryptocurrency accounts with conversions. Ironically, another centralized solution but at least a regulated one.

beefield 9y ago
> I'd rather expect banks to offer cryptocurrency accounts Yes. And then I expect that someone figures out that it is not actually necessary to transfer my crypto to my coffee vendor for cup of coffee, but as we both trust the bank, we just tell the bank to move some crypto from my account to the coffee vendor's account. Then, I expect that someone figures out that it would be cheaper (well, actually bank would be willing to pay to borrow my crypto) to keep my crypto in bank if I let the bank to lend that forward for interest. Finally, I expect that someone figures out that the raison d'etre of crypto, fixed monetary supply just broke down, as now banks can "create" "cryptocurrency" at will.

oculusthrift 9y ago

yes and that’s why there are 4 or 5 distinct decentralized exchange projects in development. The second a good one appears people will swarm to it.

nimchimpsky 9y ago

Failing, or growing. You decide.