6 ms·

People will tear their hair 100 years from now when we just watched and marvelled as this inhumane regime climbed to dominating the world.

quotemstr 9y ago
Maybe so, but they'll be able to look back and feel pride in how, for one brief shining moment, their ancestors got someone fired for something he said on Twitter. The current climate matters. It doesn't exist as a separate sphere distinct from technological innovation. It saps energy, destroys trust, and squanders human capital. And for what? I don't think it's possible to enforce a strict ideological orthodoxy in one area while leaving the mind free to be creative in others. If people regularly get burned following their ideas, they'll learn a generalized intellectual timidity. China doesn't have this particular social climate. It has many others, yes, including various human rights issues, but its problems don't seem as inimical to technical creativity as ours do.
- nine_k 9y ago
  I thought that it's much easier to get in serious trouble for speaking politically unacceptable things in China? I suppose everybody just knows it and stays shut, while in the US the notion of free speech periodically leads people to an unpleasant discovery that going against the grain of the established narrative is very much unwelcome.
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    You are right about China. Limits on free speech are codified in their laws[1], and are designed to protect and maintain their government. The US is changing in a completely different way, forming a kind of McCarthyism[2] where those with bad opinions are forced out of jobs and communities. While expression is technically not illegal, Americans can have their careers destroyed for holding unfavorable opinions on contentious political issues. Given that healthcare, housing, and food depend on your career in the US, the repercussions of going against the grain can be nearly as bad as in China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#People's_Republic_of_China_(mainland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#P... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
    - programmarchy 9y ago
      Tangential to the point you’re making, but in hindsight McCarthy was proven right about Communist infiltrators in the US by the Verona papers [1] which were declassified in 1995. If anything, he underestimated the number of conspirators. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Venona_papers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Ven...
      - Sag0Sag0 9y ago
        On the other hand he was incredibly bad at actually stopping communists.
- wfo 9y ago
  Yup, the reason China is succeeding isn't a national explicitly stated goal of advancement in science and massive state funding for scientists and huge support for academic work where US academics beg and struggle for jobs then leave the academy after a few years after they can't find one. In US the goal for most after a PhD is industry, where you make money for a corporation and never make a scientific advancement again. It's actually because scientists aren't allowed to spew hate, racism and sexism without consequences. It's because scientists who take money from oil interests to lie about climate change are not respected. It's because when a man writes a book about how black people are stupid based on entirely dishonest and invented data that wouldn't pass muster in a freshman psychology course, people don't respect him anymore. It's because when a programmer who knows nothing about science writes a memo about how women are dumb and demands to be taken seriously as doing some sort of "inquiry" he gets fired. Eye. Roll.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

quotemstr 9y ago

Maybe so, but they'll be able to look back and feel pride in how, for one brief shining moment, their ancestors got someone fired for something he said on Twitter. The current climate matters. It doesn't exist as a separate sphere distinct from technological innovation. It saps energy, destroys trust, and squanders human capital. And for what? I don't think it's possible to enforce a strict ideological orthodoxy in one area while leaving the mind free to be creative in others. If people regularly get burned following their ideas, they'll learn a generalized intellectual timidity. China doesn't have this particular social climate. It has many others, yes, including various human rights issues, but its problems don't seem as inimical to technical creativity as ours do.

nine_k 9y ago
I thought that it's much easier to get in serious trouble for speaking politically unacceptable things in China? I suppose everybody just knows it and stays shut, while in the US the notion of free speech periodically leads people to an unpleasant discovery that going against the grain of the established narrative is very much unwelcome.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  You are right about China. Limits on free speech are codified in their laws[1], and are designed to protect and maintain their government. The US is changing in a completely different way, forming a kind of McCarthyism[2] where those with bad opinions are forced out of jobs and communities. While expression is technically not illegal, Americans can have their careers destroyed for holding unfavorable opinions on contentious political issues. Given that healthcare, housing, and food depend on your career in the US, the repercussions of going against the grain can be nearly as bad as in China. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#People's_Republic_of_China_(mainland) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#P... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
  - programmarchy 9y ago
    Tangential to the point you’re making, but in hindsight McCarthy was proven right about Communist infiltrators in the US by the Verona papers [1] which were declassified in 1995. If anything, he underestimated the number of conspirators. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Venona_papers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Americans_in_the_Ven...
    - Sag0Sag0 9y ago
      On the other hand he was incredibly bad at actually stopping communists.
wfo 9y ago
Yup, the reason China is succeeding isn't a national explicitly stated goal of advancement in science and massive state funding for scientists and huge support for academic work where US academics beg and struggle for jobs then leave the academy after a few years after they can't find one. In US the goal for most after a PhD is industry, where you make money for a corporation and never make a scientific advancement again. It's actually because scientists aren't allowed to spew hate, racism and sexism without consequences. It's because scientists who take money from oil interests to lie about climate change are not respected. It's because when a man writes a book about how black people are stupid based on entirely dishonest and invented data that wouldn't pass muster in a freshman psychology course, people don't respect him anymore. It's because when a programmer who knows nothing about science writes a memo about how women are dumb and demands to be taken seriously as doing some sort of "inquiry" he gets fired. Eye. Roll.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]