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>Since the down-voting is the tool we have been given, I have tried to be more active in using it to mark comments that take discussion to wrong direction. I t

by gt_ 9y ago

>Since the down-voting is the tool we have been given, I have tried to be more active in using it to mark comments that take discussion to wrong direction. I thought downvotes were to be used on posts which don’t move the discussion or contribute to it. For example, non-sequitors or inaccuracies. Judging which direction is “wrong” sounds like opinion abuse to me. One of my favorite parts of HN is intelligent and diverse discussion, two things I believe must exist hand in hand. Maybe this is what you meant, but I would not choose to downvote you either way.

krapp 9y ago
>I thought downvotes were to be used on posts which don’t move the discussion or contribute to it. For example, non-sequitors or inaccuracies. Judging which direction is “wrong” sounds like opinion abuse to me. Downvotes can be used for any reason at all, as can upvotes. AFAIK only flagging has guidelines.
- bjourne 9y ago
  Obviously, it CAN. But down voting for "any reason" (for example, should I down vote your comment because I think you are wrong?) is unlikely to foster a collegial environment. For example, many Ask HN posts are questions asking for opinions. So you help the poster out and write your opinion. Then some dofus comes around who is to lazy to write an opinion of his or her own but wants to express disagreement by down voting your post. These dofuses' downvotes are annoying and results in people not bothering to reply to Ask HN posts anymore.
  - krapp 9y ago
    Downvoting for disagreement is probably the most common reason for downvoting, after accidentally not upvoting because the arrows are too small. Letting people downvote for any reason frees up space that would otherwise be taken by petty or banal comments. If a downvoter had something to say worth reading, I would rather they commented, but if they can't put in the effort, then the board is better off with just their vote. Better still with their complete silence, but people get emotionally involved and feel they have to contribute something. Also, I've found that most obviously pointless downvotes either get corrected or stay at -1. I haven't seen many comments voted down further than that which didn't have some obvious issues. People shouldn't be discouraged - these are meaningless internet brownie points we're talking about.
toomuchtodo 9y ago
“https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171” Ref: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  Thanks. I generally agree with that policy. The only real downside of that is that minority views can be downvoted to hell merely for being a minority view. A side effect of that is that minority members can get a lot of downvotes simply for participating, no matter how well they express themselves, and this can feel very unwelcoming and like there is a hostile atmosphere here. I post as openly female. It isn't uncommon for me to get a lot of downvotes and it is really hard for me infer meaningful signal from that. I often cannot readily determine if I committed some social faux pas that violates the guidelines or if I am getting some pile on of disagreement simply because I am a demographic outlier who, therefore, has a different world view and expresses myself differently. I posit this is a de facto barrier to diversity on the site. It will cause a lot of women and other minorities to simply not bother. In fact, someone essentially said as much to me recently. They just don't bother most of the time in part because of downvote patterns here.
  - toomuchtodo 9y ago
    I agree with your thesis, and while I posted my above comment to reference what the "rules are, I upvote downvoted comments (including yours) when I think they are of substance and have been unfairly downvoted even when I may disagree with them. I try very hard not to downvote when I disagree with a comment, only if I believe it doesn't contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. I'm often downvoted when my perspective deviates from that of the HN bubble, but I really don't mind. I'd rather have the discussion than worry about worthless internet points; if it changes even one person's mind, or helps them think or see a topic in a way they might not otherwise have, it's worth the effort put forth. TL;DR Don't worry about the downvotes. Can't change HN policies or other people's actions and feelings, only your own.
jpalomaki 9y ago
A clarification: With "wrong direction" I mean off-topic or for example comments which are certain to trigger a heated discussion taking us nowhere. Different opinions are what I expect from HN, but I wish the discussion revolves quite closely around the title.

by gt_ 9y ago

krapp 9y ago

>I thought downvotes were to be used on posts which don’t move the discussion or contribute to it. For example, non-sequitors or inaccuracies. Judging which direction is “wrong” sounds like opinion abuse to me. Downvotes can be used for any reason at all, as can upvotes. AFAIK only flagging has guidelines.

bjourne 9y ago
Obviously, it CAN. But down voting for "any reason" (for example, should I down vote your comment because I think you are wrong?) is unlikely to foster a collegial environment. For example, many Ask HN posts are questions asking for opinions. So you help the poster out and write your opinion. Then some dofus comes around who is to lazy to write an opinion of his or her own but wants to express disagreement by down voting your post. These dofuses' downvotes are annoying and results in people not bothering to reply to Ask HN posts anymore.
- krapp 9y ago
  Downvoting for disagreement is probably the most common reason for downvoting, after accidentally not upvoting because the arrows are too small. Letting people downvote for any reason frees up space that would otherwise be taken by petty or banal comments. If a downvoter had something to say worth reading, I would rather they commented, but if they can't put in the effort, then the board is better off with just their vote. Better still with their complete silence, but people get emotionally involved and feel they have to contribute something. Also, I've found that most obviously pointless downvotes either get corrected or stay at -1. I haven't seen many comments voted down further than that which didn't have some obvious issues. People shouldn't be discouraged - these are meaningless internet brownie points we're talking about.

toomuchtodo 9y ago

“https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=658691 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=392347 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171” https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=117171” Ref: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

DoreenMichele 9y ago
Thanks. I generally agree with that policy. The only real downside of that is that minority views can be downvoted to hell merely for being a minority view. A side effect of that is that minority members can get a lot of downvotes simply for participating, no matter how well they express themselves, and this can feel very unwelcoming and like there is a hostile atmosphere here. I post as openly female. It isn't uncommon for me to get a lot of downvotes and it is really hard for me infer meaningful signal from that. I often cannot readily determine if I committed some social faux pas that violates the guidelines or if I am getting some pile on of disagreement simply because I am a demographic outlier who, therefore, has a different world view and expresses myself differently. I posit this is a de facto barrier to diversity on the site. It will cause a lot of women and other minorities to simply not bother. In fact, someone essentially said as much to me recently. They just don't bother most of the time in part because of downvote patterns here.
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  I agree with your thesis, and while I posted my above comment to reference what the "rules are, I upvote downvoted comments (including yours) when I think they are of substance and have been unfairly downvoted even when I may disagree with them. I try very hard not to downvote when I disagree with a comment, only if I believe it doesn't contribute to the discussion in a meaningful way. I'm often downvoted when my perspective deviates from that of the HN bubble, but I really don't mind. I'd rather have the discussion than worry about worthless internet points; if it changes even one person's mind, or helps them think or see a topic in a way they might not otherwise have, it's worth the effort put forth. TL;DR Don't worry about the downvotes. Can't change HN policies or other people's actions and feelings, only your own.

jpalomaki 9y ago

A clarification: With "wrong direction" I mean off-topic or for example comments which are certain to trigger a heated discussion taking us nowhere. Different opinions are what I expect from HN, but I wish the discussion revolves quite closely around the title.