7 ms·

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as be

by chr1 9y ago

What is worse, causing pain or killing? If we consider an extreme case of someone going through a horrible torture, but the next day waking up as healthy as before, and without some kind of mental illness, and without losing significant amount of his time, or opportunity, would it be any different than a game? Would most people try such a game, where they play for someone getting executed in middle ages? My guess is they would, so fear of the pain is misplaced, and death is the horrible part. And therefore killing painlessly doesn't let one off the hook, since it is still killing. (And if one thinks killing is ok, then some amount of pain should be ok too.)

Sharlin 9y ago
Wait, what? You mean most people would volunteer to be tortured horribly as long as any damage is 100% reversed the next day? Uh, I’m not sure whether your model of people is entirely accurate.
- chr1 9y ago
  Not volunteer for it alone, but try it as a part of a bigger package. Kind of like a more realistic version of a horror movie/game. Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? Do you think it is better to die, instead of enduring suffering and then getting to live some more?
  - blattimwind 9y ago
    My gut feeling is that you do very little work with your hands, because your pain-o-meter seems to have drifted in a very unrealistic direction.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      I agree. I'd do a heck of a lot more unsafe shit if I knew I could survive it without permanent damage. It's the permanent damage that keeps me from doing flagrantly unsafe stuff, not the pain. You wind up causing yourself pain in all sorts of avoidable but not terribly unsafe ways.
      - myrandomcomment 9y ago
        It's is amazing the pain and suffering a human can endure through shear force of will. In Ranger School in the US Army the primary thing you learn more then anything else is you mind can tell your body to shut up deal.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    I think you severely underestimate how much painful torture is.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      If you knew there would be no permanent damage would you do it for $10, $100, $1,000, some amount that assures you never have to work again, etc? There's many cultures that have coming of age rituals that would be considered torture in the western world. People do those things because they're "part of a larger package" so to speak.
      - Tyrannosaur 9y ago
        There being "many cultures" that do this, I'd like to hear some examples. The only ones I can come up with are fictional
        lovich 9y ago
        These are the most extreme example I know of, but it's a lot of pain for a manhood ritual https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maw%C3%A9_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maw%C3%A9_people
        Terretta 9y ago
        Random cut and pastes: THAIPUSAM, MALAYSIA In a demonstration of devotion and offer of penance to the Hindu God Lord Murugan, devotees perform incredible (and sometimes gruesome!) feats. They pierce their body and face with skewers, drag chariots with hooks attached to their skin and carry uncomfortable metal frames called ‘kavadis’ through the streets and up the 272 steps to the shrine at the top of the cave. During the festival some participants enter trance-like states when their soul is believed to be cleansed of sins. PHUKET VEGETARIAN FESTIVAL, THAILAND By the name of this festival you may assume it to be a gentle affair where new-age vegetarian hippies share tofu recipes over yoga mats in Thailand. However, the Phuket Vegetarian festival is one of the craziest, most spectacular events in South East Asia. You’ll witness incredible acts of self-torture such as walking on hot coals, climbing bladed ladders and the piercing of cheeks with swords, shards of glass – even beach umbrellas. Filipino fanatics re-enact crucifixion for Good Friday In a bloody display of religious devotion Roman Catholic fanatics in the Philippines have had themselves nailed to the cross as the Christian world marks the day Jesus was crucified. Read the link for quotes from people talking about the repeated nerve pain, blood, etc.: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-crucify-themselves-for-good-friday/3937448 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-cr...
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? Yes. Read reports of torture victims. They frequently request death over continued pain.
    - Sacho 9y ago
      Torture violates several points of the hypothetical: - torture causes permanent physical damage - torture causes mental trauma - the torture victim does not know when the torture will stop
  - stordoff 9y ago
    > Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? In some cases, certainly. I'd also say that it being voluntary, and knowing that there is an end (and can be brought to an end by you), makes for a very different experience.
mod 9y ago
I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. People who are afraid of roller coasters don't ride them. Everyone's afraid of torture.
- tempestn 9y ago
  Yeah, that part didn't make sense. I would agree with the argument that a day of torture with no lasting effects would be preferable to death though.
- chr1 9y ago
  > I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." Even if it was to unlock a new level in a game, or to remove a tooth? :) More seriously though seems like i didn't manage to express what i wanted to say in my comment. My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the whole thing is just some neurons being active, and is not a big deal. Your point about needing to erase all memory of the experience to not get mental illness is very interesting. I'd expect the brain to be more stable, but we don't know enough about the brain to say for sure.
  - mod 9y ago
    > Your point about needing to erase all memory of the experience to not get mental illness is very interesting. I actually didn't express that very well. I kind of meant that if you were to erase the mental illness, you've effectively erased the whole experience. Horrible torture isn't something you just leave behind you the day after. The influence it has is almost necessarily mental illness in some form or fashion. If anyone did go through horrible torture voluntarily, I would expect they would do it to know what it was like. And mental illness is part of what it's like.
  - 9y ago
majormajor 9y ago
Hell no. Accidentally catching my hand on a table saw was bad enough, thank you very much. I knew very well I wouldn't die or suffer permanent damage and it still sucked like hell.
- MaxBarraclough 9y ago
  Same is true of many afflictions - stubbing your toe, mouth ulcers. Pain remains real even if you know it's for your own benefit and have the option of simply opting-out, see half of medicine.
mirimir 9y ago
In Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovach novels, virtual torture typically drives victims insane. And for me, I fear prolonged illness and pain more than death.
- mrexroad 9y ago
  Haven’t read the novels yet, but have watched half of Altered Carbon series on Netflix. This was the first thing that came to and a resounding ‘hell no.’
  - mirimir 9y ago
    I recommend reading the novels! The Netflix series puzzles me. It's like they put everything from the novel in a box, and pulled it out in random order. Some of the changes were arguably necessary so viewers could follow the plot. And some were typical mass-media dumbing down. But others just seemed pointless. For example, in the novels, the Envoys are not dissidents, but rather enforcers for the Protectorate. Quell was a dissident, and Takeshi did quote her frequently, but she died centuries before he was born. The Quell character in the video is actually Virginia Vidura, who was his trainer in the Envoys. And Reilieen was not his sister. Also, the virtual torture sequence in the novel is far more extreme than depicted in the video. I doubt that it could be shown, even on Netflix.
- chr1 9y ago
  > virtual torture typically drives victims insane. Is that self evident though? It seems like the difference between pleasure and pain is that pain is a signal that is interpreted as "get out of here, or you may die". And brain is pretty flexible when it comes to reinterpretting the meaning of signals. E.g. with food taste, some tastes that induce revulsion on first try, become peculiar and interesting after a while.
  - mirimir 9y ago
    Yes, and that's part of the strategy that Envoys (and presumably, real life counterparts) use in resisting torture. But with virtual torture, the victim can experience thousands of AI-driven sessions with a clock rate that's thousands of times faster than normal. So years of torture in hours.
rdiddly 9y ago
The killing in this case is a foregone conclusion, so it's really a question of, What is worse: causing a lot of pain before killing, or causing a little pain before killing? A bit easier to answer.
MaxBarraclough 9y ago
> My guess is they would No, your guess is absurd. Of course they wouldn't. It's always been possible to quite reliably cause extreme pain with little long-term consequence. The pain remains real, and people remain motivated to avoid that pain. This isn't even a thought experiment - you're just describing torture! > killing painlessly doesn't let one off the hook, since it is still killing If we're talking about human beings: obviously. No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Most people treat non-human animals as categorically different. > And if one thinks killing is ok, then some amount of pain should be ok too. Non-sequitur.
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by chr1 9y ago

Sharlin 9y ago

Wait, what? You mean most people would volunteer to be tortured horribly as long as any damage is 100% reversed the next day? Uh, I’m not sure whether your model of people is entirely accurate.

chr1 9y ago
Not volunteer for it alone, but try it as a part of a bigger package. Kind of like a more realistic version of a horror movie/game. Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? Do you think it is better to die, instead of enduring suffering and then getting to live some more?
- blattimwind 9y ago
  My gut feeling is that you do very little work with your hands, because your pain-o-meter seems to have drifted in a very unrealistic direction.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    I agree. I'd do a heck of a lot more unsafe shit if I knew I could survive it without permanent damage. It's the permanent damage that keeps me from doing flagrantly unsafe stuff, not the pain. You wind up causing yourself pain in all sorts of avoidable but not terribly unsafe ways.
    - myrandomcomment 9y ago
      It's is amazing the pain and suffering a human can endure through shear force of will. In Ranger School in the US Army the primary thing you learn more then anything else is you mind can tell your body to shut up deal.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  I think you severely underestimate how much painful torture is.
  - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
    If you knew there would be no permanent damage would you do it for $10, $100, $1,000, some amount that assures you never have to work again, etc? There's many cultures that have coming of age rituals that would be considered torture in the western world. People do those things because they're "part of a larger package" so to speak.
    - Tyrannosaur 9y ago
      There being "many cultures" that do this, I'd like to hear some examples. The only ones I can come up with are fictional
      - lovich 9y ago
        These are the most extreme example I know of, but it's a lot of pain for a manhood ritual https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maw%C3%A9_people https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maw%C3%A9_people
      - Terretta 9y ago
        Random cut and pastes: THAIPUSAM, MALAYSIA In a demonstration of devotion and offer of penance to the Hindu God Lord Murugan, devotees perform incredible (and sometimes gruesome!) feats. They pierce their body and face with skewers, drag chariots with hooks attached to their skin and carry uncomfortable metal frames called ‘kavadis’ through the streets and up the 272 steps to the shrine at the top of the cave. During the festival some participants enter trance-like states when their soul is believed to be cleansed of sins. PHUKET VEGETARIAN FESTIVAL, THAILAND By the name of this festival you may assume it to be a gentle affair where new-age vegetarian hippies share tofu recipes over yoga mats in Thailand. However, the Phuket Vegetarian festival is one of the craziest, most spectacular events in South East Asia. You’ll witness incredible acts of self-torture such as walking on hot coals, climbing bladed ladders and the piercing of cheeks with swords, shards of glass – even beach umbrellas. Filipino fanatics re-enact crucifixion for Good Friday In a bloody display of religious devotion Roman Catholic fanatics in the Philippines have had themselves nailed to the cross as the Christian world marks the day Jesus was crucified. Read the link for quotes from people talking about the repeated nerve pain, blood, etc.: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-crucify-themselves-for-good-friday/3937448 http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-04-06/philippino-fanatics-cr...
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? Yes. Read reports of torture victims. They frequently request death over continued pain.
  - Sacho 9y ago
    Torture violates several points of the hypothetical: - torture causes permanent physical damage - torture causes mental trauma - the torture victim does not know when the torture will stop
- stordoff 9y ago
  > Do you think i am entirely wrong, and suffering is worse than death? In some cases, certainly. I'd also say that it being voluntary, and knowing that there is an end (and can be brought to an end by you), makes for a very different experience.

mod 9y ago

I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." I certainly wouldn't do it for "a game." I don't think I would do it for any amount of money or other benefit, either. What you're proposing is (seemingly) no benefit beyond the experience of being tortured--which coincidentally you are going you erase when you delete the mental illness. Anyway, you're wrong, nobody would sign up for that. People who are afraid of roller coasters don't ride them. Everyone's afraid of torture.

tempestn 9y ago
Yeah, that part didn't make sense. I would agree with the argument that a day of torture with no lasting effects would be preferable to death though.
chr1 9y ago
> I absolutely, 100% would not volunteer to go through a "horrible torture." Even if it was to unlock a new level in a game, or to remove a tooth? :) More seriously though seems like i didn't manage to express what i wanted to say in my comment. My point was that people are afraid of torture, and many other things (like roller coasters) because there's a large chance to die in the end. And without that chance the whole thing is just some neurons being active, and is not a big deal. Your point about needing to erase all memory of the experience to not get mental illness is very interesting. I'd expect the brain to be more stable, but we don't know enough about the brain to say for sure.
- mod 9y ago
  > Your point about needing to erase all memory of the experience to not get mental illness is very interesting. I actually didn't express that very well. I kind of meant that if you were to erase the mental illness, you've effectively erased the whole experience. Horrible torture isn't something you just leave behind you the day after. The influence it has is almost necessarily mental illness in some form or fashion. If anyone did go through horrible torture voluntarily, I would expect they would do it to know what it was like. And mental illness is part of what it's like.
- 9y ago

majormajor 9y ago

Hell no. Accidentally catching my hand on a table saw was bad enough, thank you very much. I knew very well I wouldn't die or suffer permanent damage and it still sucked like hell.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago
Same is true of many afflictions - stubbing your toe, mouth ulcers. Pain remains real even if you know it's for your own benefit and have the option of simply opting-out, see half of medicine.

mirimir 9y ago

In Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovach novels, virtual torture typically drives victims insane. And for me, I fear prolonged illness and pain more than death.

mrexroad 9y ago
Haven’t read the novels yet, but have watched half of Altered Carbon series on Netflix. This was the first thing that came to and a resounding ‘hell no.’
- mirimir 9y ago
  I recommend reading the novels! The Netflix series puzzles me. It's like they put everything from the novel in a box, and pulled it out in random order. Some of the changes were arguably necessary so viewers could follow the plot. And some were typical mass-media dumbing down. But others just seemed pointless. For example, in the novels, the Envoys are not dissidents, but rather enforcers for the Protectorate. Quell was a dissident, and Takeshi did quote her frequently, but she died centuries before he was born. The Quell character in the video is actually Virginia Vidura, who was his trainer in the Envoys. And Reilieen was not his sister. Also, the virtual torture sequence in the novel is far more extreme than depicted in the video. I doubt that it could be shown, even on Netflix.
chr1 9y ago
> virtual torture typically drives victims insane. Is that self evident though? It seems like the difference between pleasure and pain is that pain is a signal that is interpreted as "get out of here, or you may die". And brain is pretty flexible when it comes to reinterpretting the meaning of signals. E.g. with food taste, some tastes that induce revulsion on first try, become peculiar and interesting after a while.
- mirimir 9y ago
  Yes, and that's part of the strategy that Envoys (and presumably, real life counterparts) use in resisting torture. But with virtual torture, the victim can experience thousands of AI-driven sessions with a clock rate that's thousands of times faster than normal. So years of torture in hours.

rdiddly 9y ago

The killing in this case is a foregone conclusion, so it's really a question of, What is worse: causing a lot of pain before killing, or causing a little pain before killing? A bit easier to answer.

MaxBarraclough 9y ago

> My guess is they would No, your guess is absurd. Of course they wouldn't. It's always been possible to quite reliably cause extreme pain with little long-term consequence. The pain remains real, and people remain motivated to avoid that pain. This isn't even a thought experiment - you're just describing torture! > killing painlessly doesn't let one off the hook, since it is still killing If we're talking about human beings: obviously. No-one in their right mind would disagree with that. Most people treat non-human animals as categorically different. > And if one thinks killing is ok, then some amount of pain should be ok too. Non-sequitur.

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