5 ms·

Give me a break. Those low level employees do a job under a contract which was supposedly negotiated in good faith. Now because you don't like "unions" or "go

by jbooth 16y ago

Give me a break. Those low level employees do a job under a contract which was supposedly negotiated in good faith. Now because you don't like "unions" or "government" it's ok to stiff people who perform a public service for a previously agreed upon wage and benefits? What, because highway workers weren't doing financial due diligence on the multi-hundred-million dollar county's books? It was their responsibility to do this? I thought that was the responsibility of the guy who got thrown in jail for cooking the books. This is what that professor was talking about when he was apologizing. Everybody wants to cut taxes and make public servants work for free, whether it's out of simple selfishness or a more highly evolved ideology (aka fancy selfishness).

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Union contracts are not negotiated in good faith. That's the problem. Our politicians do not get into negotiations with the union, driving as hard a bargain as possible and looking out for the taxpayers. Our politicians are in league with the unions hoping to get their support in the next election. In any case, no one wants unions to supply labor for free - all anyone is advocating is that the government pay it's suppliers market rates or below. I.e., the politicians should look out for the taxpayers, not government suppliers. As I've pointed out to you before, most liberals get strongly outraged when there is even a hint that a military contractor might have gotten a sweetheart deal. And yet, there is a strong defense of Big Labor when they get a similar sweetheart deal. Why is that?
- jbooth 16y ago
  Liberals don't claim that the government should renege on a contract that was lawfully entered into with a military contractor. In fact, nobody claims that, ever. Yet whenever local budgets are crunched, we always hear about how greedy the municipal workers are. You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? I've negotiated union deals from the government side. I negotiated fairly, in good faith, and nobody attempted to bribe me with campaign contributions or do 1/10 of the stuff that regularly happens in Washington with military contractors. Your assumption that the deal must be crooked because it's paying workers is ridiculous. How about the fact that they were out of money because they were cooking the books? How come the workers have to pay for that screwup?
  - houseabsolute 16y ago
    > You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. (http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655 http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655). Personally I think an entry-level pay of $80k for someone with only a high-school diploma is pretty good. There are other areas in the Bay where pay is even higher, like Oakland. I can't speak to highway workers.
    - jshen 16y ago
      My wife happens to be a teacher in L.A. (not lausd). Her entry level salary was barely 40k and she is now in the 50k range after 6 years. I'm a programmer with less education, less years of experience, and I make more than double what she makes. If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. But, neither of our single data points says anything about the situation. I'm assuming most people on here took statistics and understand that both are meaningless. We need the average, and the standard deviation at a minimum to say anything meaningful.
      - houseabsolute 16y ago
        > If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk about them too. Among other things, it's almost impossible for them to get fired and their raises don't seem to be connected to performance. They also get to take three months off during the summer, bringing their annualized salary up to about 70k. If you throw their pension plans into the mix, it is actually very profitable compared to most employment pursuits available to liberal arts majors. Also, it's hard to compare the deal they are getting versus the one you are getting, because unlike yours, the price on teachers' labor is not set in a market environment. You might also say that the labor of a construction worker or fast food cook is more back-breaking and intensive than yours, but ultimately that is not the criterion on which wages are decided. The same goes for level of education and experience. None of these are the sole factors that determine what an individual's labor is worth.

by jbooth 16y ago

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Union contracts are not negotiated in good faith. That's the problem. Our politicians do not get into negotiations with the union, driving as hard a bargain as possible and looking out for the taxpayers. Our politicians are in league with the unions hoping to get their support in the next election. In any case, no one wants unions to supply labor for free - all anyone is advocating is that the government pay it's suppliers market rates or below. I.e., the politicians should look out for the taxpayers, not government suppliers. As I've pointed out to you before, most liberals get strongly outraged when there is even a hint that a military contractor might have gotten a sweetheart deal. And yet, there is a strong defense of Big Labor when they get a similar sweetheart deal. Why is that?

jbooth 16y ago
Liberals don't claim that the government should renege on a contract that was lawfully entered into with a military contractor. In fact, nobody claims that, ever. Yet whenever local budgets are crunched, we always hear about how greedy the municipal workers are. You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? I've negotiated union deals from the government side. I negotiated fairly, in good faith, and nobody attempted to bribe me with campaign contributions or do 1/10 of the stuff that regularly happens in Washington with military contractors. Your assumption that the deal must be crooked because it's paying workers is ridiculous. How about the fact that they were out of money because they were cooking the books? How come the workers have to pay for that screwup?
- houseabsolute 16y ago
  > You know what policemen and highway workers get paid? Policemen get paid a lot of money where I live. (http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655 http://sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=1655). Personally I think an entry-level pay of $80k for someone with only a high-school diploma is pretty good. There are other areas in the Bay where pay is even higher, like Oakland. I can't speak to highway workers.
  - jshen 16y ago
    My wife happens to be a teacher in L.A. (not lausd). Her entry level salary was barely 40k and she is now in the 50k range after 6 years. I'm a programmer with less education, less years of experience, and I make more than double what she makes. If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. But, neither of our single data points says anything about the situation. I'm assuming most people on here took statistics and understand that both are meaningless. We need the average, and the standard deviation at a minimum to say anything meaningful.
    - houseabsolute 16y ago
      > If they are getting a posh deal I sure as hell don't see it. We were talking about policemen and road workers, but now that you mention teachers, we can talk about them too. Among other things, it's almost impossible for them to get fired and their raises don't seem to be connected to performance. They also get to take three months off during the summer, bringing their annualized salary up to about 70k. If you throw their pension plans into the mix, it is actually very profitable compared to most employment pursuits available to liberal arts majors. Also, it's hard to compare the deal they are getting versus the one you are getting, because unlike yours, the price on teachers' labor is not set in a market environment. You might also say that the labor of a construction worker or fast food cook is more back-breaking and intensive than yours, but ultimately that is not the criterion on which wages are decided. The same goes for level of education and experience. None of these are the sole factors that determine what an individual's labor is worth.