5 ms·

To be 'fair', this merely reflects a known major difference between the US and Europe. Just about any felony is associated with a maximum sentence that is roug

To be 'fair', this merely reflects a known major difference between the US and Europe. Just about any felony is associated with a maximum sentence that is roughly 10 times higher in the US than in Europe. The US justice system is all about retribution, this is so ingrained in the US psyche that ssemingly normal people who think they are humane and have good moral compass will make "don't drop the soap jokes" and basically accept prison rape as normal way of dealing with felons, provided they dislike the crime enough. Even US judges occasionally state in public that they hope that the defendant will die in prison. People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
...not to mention death penalty, including states where the family of a victim were allowed to watch the execution and even cheer.
mtgx 9y ago
Plus, I find the idea of "sentence stacking" absolutely absurd. It just encourages prosecutors to throw the book at you and scare you into taking a "shorter" sentence with a plea deal.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  I find the idea of plea deals absurd. They seem to encourage results before justice
  - Sacho 9y ago
    The costs of the US justice system are already exorbitant, with plea deals being the norm. Public defense offices are overworked and understaffed, judge calendars are overbooked, quality representation costs millions... I forgot which justice said it, but basically the justice system relies on plea deals as it stands. I don't know what kind of sweeping reform would be required to change that. Edit: "That is what plea bargaining is. It is not some adjunct to the criminal justice system; it is the criminal justice system." Scott & Stuntz, Plea Bargaining as Contract, 101 Yale L. J. 1909, 1912 (1992). " Quoted in Missouri v Frye before the Supreme Court(https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16929683133924452834 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=169296831339244...)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      Whereas lots of other countries don't have them. Could it be that the US are prosecuting too many people? Too many things are illegal perhaps? The war on drugs maybe? Perhaps, when so many people are doing something illegal that your criminal justice system can't take the strain it is time to consider what is illegal? Plea bargains on the other hand seem to be working around justice.
      - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
        Maybe we're prosecuting too many people because too much otherwise unremarkable behavior is illegal.
    - derefr 9y ago
      Is it just that we don’t have enough public defenders? It sounds like there’s a good opportunity here to convince the government that 10x-ing the number of lawyers they hire would make for a good jobs program.
squarefoot 9y ago
The real difference is that the jail system is privatized in the US, so that it has become a profiting system not that different from hotels and resorts. Hotels and resorts need to get a constant influx of customers to be kept in business, so do private prisons, and harsh punitive laws help to get that goal. Make prisons public and the sudden need to save taxpayers money will force them to keep only real criminals behind bars.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  Private prisons are a small percentage of all jails. That's not the reason for long sentences.
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    I used to say that for a long time too, and its still technically correct, but so much in the prison system is part of a business (like phone calls and "work" and other necessities). A small introduction: https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-uni...
    - AnthonyMouse 9y ago
      It's not just the prison system either, it's the whole justice system. Make the penalties for everything unreasonably harsh you escalate what criminals are willing to do to avoid their people going to jail. They're more likely to carry weapons and murder witnesses and the whole works. Which allows the police to justify more SWAT teams and military hardware and surveillance gear that all come from private for-profit corporations. Arms dealers love an arms race.
- barry-cotter 9y ago
  Prison guard unions have exactly the same incentives, whether in the EU, Canada or the US.
  - 9y ago
rbehrends 9y ago
> People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters. I would be careful to generalize here. It's often not the people that are reluctant to demand retribution, but criminal justice systems that are insulated against populism. For example, there's currently a pretty sickening case of serial gang rape being reported on in Germany and there's plenty of popular outrage [1], including some people wishing for the death penalty and for body parts getting hacked off (and the suspects appear to be ethnic Germans, so it's not anti-migrant hysteria). But in the end, the criminal justice system is unlikely to be affected by that outrage, largely because of Germany's career judiciary (both prosecutors and judges). [1] The outrage is understandable; the crimes make me feel ill, too. But the desire for retribution is still way outside what the penal code or the constitution would permit.
jernfrost 9y ago
The US also use pleabargains extensively. Insane prison sentences in the US is essentially used to blackmail the accused into giving up their right to a trial. Hence over 70% of US inmates never went to trial.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

eeZah7Ux 9y ago

...not to mention death penalty, including states where the family of a victim were allowed to watch the execution and even cheer.

mtgx 9y ago

Plus, I find the idea of "sentence stacking" absolutely absurd. It just encourages prosecutors to throw the book at you and scare you into taking a "shorter" sentence with a plea deal.

jimnotgym 9y ago
I find the idea of plea deals absurd. They seem to encourage results before justice
- Sacho 9y ago
  The costs of the US justice system are already exorbitant, with plea deals being the norm. Public defense offices are overworked and understaffed, judge calendars are overbooked, quality representation costs millions... I forgot which justice said it, but basically the justice system relies on plea deals as it stands. I don't know what kind of sweeping reform would be required to change that. Edit: "That is what plea bargaining is. It is not some adjunct to the criminal justice system; it is the criminal justice system." Scott & Stuntz, Plea Bargaining as Contract, 101 Yale L. J. 1909, 1912 (1992). " Quoted in Missouri v Frye before the Supreme Court(https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16929683133924452834 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=169296831339244...)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    Whereas lots of other countries don't have them. Could it be that the US are prosecuting too many people? Too many things are illegal perhaps? The war on drugs maybe? Perhaps, when so many people are doing something illegal that your criminal justice system can't take the strain it is time to consider what is illegal? Plea bargains on the other hand seem to be working around justice.
    - dsfyu404ed 9y ago
      Maybe we're prosecuting too many people because too much otherwise unremarkable behavior is illegal.
  - derefr 9y ago
    Is it just that we don’t have enough public defenders? It sounds like there’s a good opportunity here to convince the government that 10x-ing the number of lawyers they hire would make for a good jobs program.

squarefoot 9y ago

The real difference is that the jail system is privatized in the US, so that it has become a profiting system not that different from hotels and resorts. Hotels and resorts need to get a constant influx of customers to be kept in business, so do private prisons, and harsh punitive laws help to get that goal. Make prisons public and the sudden need to save taxpayers money will force them to keep only real criminals behind bars.

maxxxxx 9y ago
Private prisons are a small percentage of all jails. That's not the reason for long sentences.
- fwsgonzo 9y ago
  I used to say that for a long time too, and its still technically correct, but so much in the prison system is part of a business (like phone calls and "work" and other necessities). A small introduction: https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-united-states-big-business-or-a-new-form-of-slavery/8289 https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-prison-industry-in-the-uni...
  - AnthonyMouse 9y ago
    It's not just the prison system either, it's the whole justice system. Make the penalties for everything unreasonably harsh you escalate what criminals are willing to do to avoid their people going to jail. They're more likely to carry weapons and murder witnesses and the whole works. Which allows the police to justify more SWAT teams and military hardware and surveillance gear that all come from private for-profit corporations. Arms dealers love an arms race.
barry-cotter 9y ago
Prison guard unions have exactly the same incentives, whether in the EU, Canada or the US.
- 9y ago

rbehrends 9y ago

> People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters. I would be careful to generalize here. It's often not the people that are reluctant to demand retribution, but criminal justice systems that are insulated against populism. For example, there's currently a pretty sickening case of serial gang rape being reported on in Germany and there's plenty of popular outrage [1], including some people wishing for the death penalty and for body parts getting hacked off (and the suspects appear to be ethnic Germans, so it's not anti-migrant hysteria). But in the end, the criminal justice system is unlikely to be affected by that outrage, largely because of Germany's career judiciary (both prosecutors and judges). [1] The outrage is understandable; the crimes make me feel ill, too. But the desire for retribution is still way outside what the penal code or the constitution would permit.

jernfrost 9y ago

The US also use pleabargains extensively. Insane prison sentences in the US is essentially used to blackmail the accused into giving up their right to a trial. Hence over 70% of US inmates never went to trial.