6 ms·

TL/DR: Jailbreaking the Wii lead an American guy to prison, while it would have been legal in Europe, according to the EUCJ.

by dest 9y ago

gear54rus 9y ago
Pity those vultures found him. Another hero we don't deserve goes down...
beefhash 9y ago
It might be worth making it precise that you mean "legal in the EU". Assuming that every legal system in Europe that is not in the EU would reach the same conclusion as the EU Court of Justice may be dangerous. As this article demonstrates, opinions about copyright can differ wildly.
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Even in the EU, local courts might not always reach the same decision due to differences in local law. But at least the ECJ has set some standard as to what is acceptable.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    > Even in the EU, local courts might not always reach the same decision due to differences in local law. Same as in the US, but ultimately the EJC is Europe's Supreme Court, if it decides to take a case and rule, its rulings supersede local decisions.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Matt3o12_ 9y ago
It should be added, and this is important, this sentence is not punished equally because of the country‘s laws, it is because of an international trade agreement which both Europe and America have agreed to. Specifically Article 11 of the WIPO Copyright Treaty. A EU court ruled that it is not illegal to provide a mod chip for the Wii because of “how often [the] devices are in fact used in order to allow unauthorised copies … and how often that equipment is used for purposes which do not infringe copyright[.]“ (from the article). The US court meanwhile ignored the question whether they could have legitimate purpose at all and just saw it as “a device to circumvent copyright“. What is interesting here is not that two countries have different laws, it is that an “international“ law is interpreted completely different for an almost identical case by two countries and thus punished completely differently.
- wereHamster 9y ago
  Isn't there an international court (the one in Den Haag?) that could be used to clarify this difference in interpretation of international law?
  - barry-cotter 9y ago
    The International Court of Justice does not have compulsory jurisdiction, cases can only be referred to it by agreement between state parties, whether such agreement is expressed before or after the dispute. I'm unfamiliar with the Berne convention but I think it sets a minimum standard for copyright. States are free to go above the minimum. States are definitely free to decide whether a crime is civil or criminal and how it is to be prosecuted and punished. There're a series of excellent EdX courses on International Law by the Université Catholique de Louvain if you're interested. https://www.edx.org/micromasters/louvainx-international-law https://www.edx.org/micromasters/louvainx-international-law Don't use endonyms like Den Haag or Torino for The Hague or Turin for developed countries. Use the traditional exonyms.
  - masklinn 9y ago
    The US withdrew from the ICJ's "compulsory jurisdiction" following Nicaragua v. United States and accept the court's jurisdiction "on a case by case basis" (not to mention enforcement of ICJ rulings are performed by the UN Security Council on which the US have veto rights). The court mostly deals with disputes between states — which is not the case here as a USian was imprisoned by the US following US interpretation of treaty rules — and the US would have to allow its jurisdiction for this case which I wouldn't see happen normally, and even less so under the current jingoistic administration.
JohnStrangeII 9y ago
To be 'fair', this merely reflects a known major difference between the US and Europe. Just about any felony is associated with a maximum sentence that is roughly 10 times higher in the US than in Europe. The US justice system is all about retribution, this is so ingrained in the US psyche that ssemingly normal people who think they are humane and have good moral compass will make "don't drop the soap jokes" and basically accept prison rape as normal way of dealing with felons, provided they dislike the crime enough. Even US judges occasionally state in public that they hope that the defendant will die in prison. People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- eeZah7Ux 9y ago
  ...not to mention death penalty, including states where the family of a victim were allowed to watch the execution and even cheer.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Plus, I find the idea of "sentence stacking" absolutely absurd. It just encourages prosecutors to throw the book at you and scare you into taking a "shorter" sentence with a plea deal.
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    I find the idea of plea deals absurd. They seem to encourage results before justice
    - Sacho 9y ago
      The costs of the US justice system are already exorbitant, with plea deals being the norm. Public defense offices are overworked and understaffed, judge calendars are overbooked, quality representation costs millions... I forgot which justice said it, but basically the justice system relies on plea deals as it stands. I don't know what kind of sweeping reform would be required to change that. Edit: "That is what plea bargaining is. It is not some adjunct to the criminal justice system; it is the criminal justice system." Scott & Stuntz, Plea Bargaining as Contract, 101 Yale L. J. 1909, 1912 (1992). " Quoted in Missouri v Frye before the Supreme Court(https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16929683133924452834 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=169296831339244...)
rco8786 9y ago
Opinions about the law itself aside, I’m confused why this fact is consider r material. If someone in the UK was arrested for having a gun would we write about a “British man serving time for something that’s legal in the US”?
dvno42 9y ago
That's nerve wracking and I feel for the guy. As a kid in 7th grade, helping others install mod chips was definitely a big spark in my then still young tech journey. So what if he makes a couple hundred dollars here and there, how does that equate to spending a year in prison. If nothing else, he's now spent a not insignificant time with felons in his more formative years...
Feniks 9y ago
Even if it had been illegal nobody would be sent to prison over it. Just a fine and probation.

TL/DR: Jailbreaking the Wii lead an American guy to prison, while it would have been legal in Europe, according to the EUCJ.

by dest 9y ago

TL/DR: Jailbreaking the Wii lead an American guy to prison, while it would have been legal in Europe, according to the EUCJ.

gear54rus 9y ago

Pity those vultures found him. Another hero we don't deserve goes down...

beefhash 9y ago

It might be worth making it precise that you mean "legal in the EU". Assuming that every legal system in Europe that is not in the EU would reach the same conclusion as the EU Court of Justice may be dangerous. As this article demonstrates, opinions about copyright can differ wildly.

charlesdm 9y ago
Even in the EU, local courts might not always reach the same decision due to differences in local law. But at least the ECJ has set some standard as to what is acceptable.
- masklinn 9y ago
  > Even in the EU, local courts might not always reach the same decision due to differences in local law. Same as in the US, but ultimately the EJC is Europe's Supreme Court, if it decides to take a case and rule, its rulings supersede local decisions.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

Matt3o12_ 9y ago

It should be added, and this is important, this sentence is not punished equally because of the country‘s laws, it is because of an international trade agreement which both Europe and America have agreed to. Specifically Article 11 of the WIPO Copyright Treaty. A EU court ruled that it is not illegal to provide a mod chip for the Wii because of “how often [the] devices are in fact used in order to allow unauthorised copies … and how often that equipment is used for purposes which do not infringe copyright[.]“ (from the article). The US court meanwhile ignored the question whether they could have legitimate purpose at all and just saw it as “a device to circumvent copyright“. What is interesting here is not that two countries have different laws, it is that an “international“ law is interpreted completely different for an almost identical case by two countries and thus punished completely differently.

wereHamster 9y ago
Isn't there an international court (the one in Den Haag?) that could be used to clarify this difference in interpretation of international law?
- barry-cotter 9y ago
  The International Court of Justice does not have compulsory jurisdiction, cases can only be referred to it by agreement between state parties, whether such agreement is expressed before or after the dispute. I'm unfamiliar with the Berne convention but I think it sets a minimum standard for copyright. States are free to go above the minimum. States are definitely free to decide whether a crime is civil or criminal and how it is to be prosecuted and punished. There're a series of excellent EdX courses on International Law by the Université Catholique de Louvain if you're interested. https://www.edx.org/micromasters/louvainx-international-law https://www.edx.org/micromasters/louvainx-international-law Don't use endonyms like Den Haag or Torino for The Hague or Turin for developed countries. Use the traditional exonyms.
- masklinn 9y ago
  The US withdrew from the ICJ's "compulsory jurisdiction" following Nicaragua v. United States and accept the court's jurisdiction "on a case by case basis" (not to mention enforcement of ICJ rulings are performed by the UN Security Council on which the US have veto rights). The court mostly deals with disputes between states — which is not the case here as a USian was imprisoned by the US following US interpretation of treaty rules — and the US would have to allow its jurisdiction for this case which I wouldn't see happen normally, and even less so under the current jingoistic administration.

JohnStrangeII 9y ago

To be 'fair', this merely reflects a known major difference between the US and Europe. Just about any felony is associated with a maximum sentence that is roughly 10 times higher in the US than in Europe. The US justice system is all about retribution, this is so ingrained in the US psyche that ssemingly normal people who think they are humane and have good moral compass will make "don't drop the soap jokes" and basically accept prison rape as normal way of dealing with felons, provided they dislike the crime enough. Even US judges occasionally state in public that they hope that the defendant will die in prison. People in Europe tend to be more civil in such matters.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
eeZah7Ux 9y ago
...not to mention death penalty, including states where the family of a victim were allowed to watch the execution and even cheer.
mtgx 9y ago
Plus, I find the idea of "sentence stacking" absolutely absurd. It just encourages prosecutors to throw the book at you and scare you into taking a "shorter" sentence with a plea deal.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  I find the idea of plea deals absurd. They seem to encourage results before justice
  - Sacho 9y ago
    The costs of the US justice system are already exorbitant, with plea deals being the norm. Public defense offices are overworked and understaffed, judge calendars are overbooked, quality representation costs millions... I forgot which justice said it, but basically the justice system relies on plea deals as it stands. I don't know what kind of sweeping reform would be required to change that. Edit: "That is what plea bargaining is. It is not some adjunct to the criminal justice system; it is the criminal justice system." Scott & Stuntz, Plea Bargaining as Contract, 101 Yale L. J. 1909, 1912 (1992). " Quoted in Missouri v Frye before the Supreme Court(https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=16929683133924452834 https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=169296831339244...)

rco8786 9y ago

Opinions about the law itself aside, I’m confused why this fact is consider r material. If someone in the UK was arrested for having a gun would we write about a “British man serving time for something that’s legal in the US”?

dvno42 9y ago

That's nerve wracking and I feel for the guy. As a kid in 7th grade, helping others install mod chips was definitely a big spark in my then still young tech journey. So what if he makes a couple hundred dollars here and there, how does that equate to spending a year in prison. If nothing else, he's now spent a not insignificant time with felons in his more formative years...

Feniks 9y ago

Even if it had been illegal nobody would be sent to prison over it. Just a fine and probation.