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so, like everyone else, our candidate pipeline was male-dominated Doesn't a situation where the candidate pipeline is so skewed call to question the desirabili

so, like everyone else, our candidate pipeline was male-dominated Doesn't a situation where the candidate pipeline is so skewed call to question the desirability of "equality of outcomes?" It would also make me question ideological doubling-down, and mob psychology behaviors like ridiculing managers who hadn't met quotas yet. Such behaviors in such a context, like that of the Google which James Damore described, strike me as every but as illogical and mean-spirited as the parody motivational sign, "the beating will continue until morale improves." Google has enacted diversity policies which are directed towards the front end of the pipeline -- like directly recruiting at Howard University -- and those are supposed to be backed up by hard numbers showing results.

tptacek 9y ago
"Equality of outcomes" is a political catch phrase, and not one I introduced into the conversation.
- stcredzero 9y ago
  Right. "The social compact" is your catch phrase, or at least it used to be.
  - tptacek 9y ago
    I do believe in equality of opportunity, and do not believe we have it. You're familiar with what I think of tech management culture. Hiring, in particular, but none of the rest of it is any better. The idea that anyone would feel comfortable making assertions about things our field gets right offends me. As a profession, we're clowns.
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      As a profession, there is hardly a better one to be in for women. It's one of the highest paid, most flexible and equal opportunity professions there are. All the biggest tech companies go out of their way to encourage women to the point where they favor women rather than men. What industry does better when you look at it on a whole? No one is claiming it's perfect but it's hardly filled with clowns IMO.
      - tptacek 9y ago
        Law. Medicine. Accounting. And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random. At the very peak of our profession, on teams building the most important and widely used software, we are at best working around those problems.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        Neither law nor accounting are better than the tech industry when you put everything together. Medicine might be as good and is already having record level of females.
        tptacek 9y ago
        You're wrong.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        Ok, about what? If you compare working hours, salaries, opportunity, benefits, freedom, vacation, maternity leave etc. I have a hard time seeing law or accounting being better and even with medicine I would claim that tech is still better for women on every step. Whether your company doesn't live up to this is another question but most other places I have been or worked with in the tech industry are extremely open to both women and minorities.
        stcredzero 9y ago
        And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random. In other words, it's exactly the kind of milieu which runs off of ideology, and is ripe for ideological hysteria. I mean, what in the heck do we think language flamewars are?

tptacek 9y ago

"Equality of outcomes" is a political catch phrase, and not one I introduced into the conversation.

stcredzero 9y ago
Right. "The social compact" is your catch phrase, or at least it used to be.
- tptacek 9y ago
  I do believe in equality of opportunity, and do not believe we have it. You're familiar with what I think of tech management culture. Hiring, in particular, but none of the rest of it is any better. The idea that anyone would feel comfortable making assertions about things our field gets right offends me. As a profession, we're clowns.
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    As a profession, there is hardly a better one to be in for women. It's one of the highest paid, most flexible and equal opportunity professions there are. All the biggest tech companies go out of their way to encourage women to the point where they favor women rather than men. What industry does better when you look at it on a whole? No one is claiming it's perfect but it's hardly filled with clowns IMO.
    - tptacek 9y ago
      Law. Medicine. Accounting. And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random. At the very peak of our profession, on teams building the most important and widely used software, we are at best working around those problems.
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        Neither law nor accounting are better than the tech industry when you put everything together. Medicine might be as good and is already having record level of females.
        tptacek 9y ago
        You're wrong.
        ThomPete 9y ago
        Ok, about what? If you compare working hours, salaries, opportunity, benefits, freedom, vacation, maternity leave etc. I have a hard time seeing law or accounting being better and even with medicine I would claim that tech is still better for women on every step. Whether your company doesn't live up to this is another question but most other places I have been or worked with in the tech industry are extremely open to both women and minorities.
      - stcredzero 9y ago
        And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random. In other words, it's exactly the kind of milieu which runs off of ideology, and is ripe for ideological hysteria. I mean, what in the heck do we think language flamewars are?