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Prediction - there will be a Harvard Business Review about Facebook's adventure with licensing. My unproven hypothesis is that they hurt their software's adopt

Prediction - there will be a Harvard Business Review about Facebook's adventure with licensing. My unproven hypothesis is that they hurt their software's adoption rate because of their licensing. Personally, I believe MIT is correct. I had moved my company away from React when they had the licensing problems. To me, it feels like they are coming back to the community now.

zitterbewegung 9y ago
Of course it hurt their software adoption rate. You have very public spats by wordpress and apache over this. Think of people who couldn't convince their boss to use react / react-native because the legal department saw that PATENTS file and said NO WAY. I think they are making these moves because they see that they are going to be in a weaker position in the future and need to open their grip on these projects to make sure that other people will use it. Its probably too late though and people are moving off of it to the next javascript framework.
- zapita 9y ago
  > Its probably too late though and people are moving off of it to the next javascript framework. But is there a viable alternative with the same level of features and ecosystem momentum? GraphQL and React Native, in particular, seem well positioned to dominate their respective niches. That gives React a big advantage, which might counteract the licensing issues, no?
  - zitterbewegung 9y ago
    If that were true then why are they changing the licence at all? They have tooling and are well positioned but what they need is big players to also back them so that people are more incentive to buy in. That is where moving the licence to MIT makes sense.
    - zapita 9y ago
      I think we are saying the same thing. Which part of what I said do you disagree with?
    - pbalau 9y ago
      To buy in for what? If literally everybody apart Facebook stops using React, the project will still go on because it powers a shitload of FB properties.
      - SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
        But then they wouldn't get the free labor of the community.
  - irrational 9y ago
    >But is there a viable alternative with the same level of features and ecosystem momentum? Does it matter? At some point something else will come along and React will go the way of jQuery. And then something else will come along and supplant whatever supplanted React.
    - qaq 9y ago
      Yes because if I need to build something right now it does not really help me that there will be something in the future to replace React.
- mwcampbell 9y ago
  What's the next JavaScript framework for non-web mobile apps though?
  - purerandomness 9y ago
    Oh, it's 2018, nobody uses React Native anymore. We're using Weex [1] or NativeScript [2] now. [1] https://weex.incubator.apache.org/ https://weex.incubator.apache.org/ [2] https://www.nativescript.org/ https://www.nativescript.org/
    - parmesan 9y ago
      /s? React Native seems to be the only alternative to native apps as of today. Googles Flutter might be a viable alternative if they don't drop it, but it's far from production ready..
    - mlsarecmg 9y ago
      You mean, you do that? I don't get it otherwise. http://www.npmtrends.com/react-native-vs-weex-toolkit http://www.npmtrends.com/react-native-vs-weex-toolkit Native is hard, React needed years to get it even nearly right, and it did that with the community's backing. At this point RN features dozens of renderers outside of the mobile space, with some of them made by the very vendors that sell their platforms (for instance Microsofts react-native-windows). A couple of them here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large Can't imagine why anyone would willingly want to wait another 4-5 years until Weex is where RN is today.
      - worg 9y ago
        You mind sharing the list on https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large ?
        mwcampbell 9y ago
        It also irks me that that list was shared as an image. For me, it's just an inconvenience. For others, it's an accessibility problem, at least until OCR is 100% accurate. Anyway, here's the list (I tested all the URLs): Windows: https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows macOS: https://github.com/ptmt/react-native-macos https://github.com/ptmt/react-native-macos Linux (Qt): https://github.com/status-im/react-native-desktop https://github.com/status-im/react-native-desktop AR: https://github.com/HippoAR/react-native-arkit https://github.com/HippoAR/react-native-arkit VR: https://facebook.github.io/react-vr/ https://facebook.github.io/react-vr/ TV: https://github.com/react-tv/react-tv https://github.com/react-tv/react-tv Shell consoles: https://github.com/Yomguithereal/react-blessed https://github.com/Yomguithereal/react-blessed Word: https://github.com/nitin42/redocx https://github.com/nitin42/redocx PDF: https://github.com/diegomura/react-pdf https://github.com/diegomura/react-pdf 3D: https://github.com/Izzimach/react-three https://github.com/Izzimach/react-three Sketch app: http://airbnb.io/react-sketchapp/ http://airbnb.io/react-sketchapp/ Keynote: https://twitter.com/nishb1/status/913744410537537536 https://twitter.com/nishb1/status/913744410537537536 Hardware: https://github.com/iamdustan/react-hardware https://github.com/iamdustan/react-hardware Samplers: https://twitter.com/GabeRicard/status/911989894267973633 https://twitter.com/GabeRicard/status/911989894267973633
- tomelders 9y ago
  The irony being that the Apache license has an identical clause.
  - thanksgiving 9y ago
    Is it identical though? My understanding was that Facebook license preserves Facebook's right to sure you for patent infringement but prohibits you from suing Facebook (and more importantly anyone Facebook designates as its minion) for patent infringement. So your patent portfolio is worthless if you want to use Facebook software because I'd imagine anyone can appeal Facebook for patronage? I thought it was a good thing personally because patent lawsuits are a waste of everyone's time but apparently enough people disagree. Not that I know anything. Sorry for rambling. Point is I want to ask the question: are they (practically) identical?
  - dbmikus 9y ago
    The Apache patent grant and retaliation clause says that if you issue a lawsuit alleging that the licensed software infringes on a patent, then you lose your patent grant to that software. The old Facebook license said that if you issue a patent lawsuit against Facebook, you lose the license to the software. That is in addition to the retaliation clause about the software itself. So if you are using any OSS from Facebook, and then Facebook comes in and infringes on some unrelated patent you own, you need to stop using that software before suing or you just don't sue.
- schrep 9y ago
  Actually we just thought it was a shame that people wouldn’t use it because of the license. Not much more complicated than that.
  - akie 9y ago
    Someone on Reddit argued that the new legal situation is worse because the PATENTS clause provided protection against litigation unless you sued Facebook first. Licensing under MIT, s/he argued, theoretically opens you up to litigation at any time IF Facebook decides to enforce any patents. So I was wondering: as far as you know, does Facebook have any patents on React or React Native?
    - ngrilly 9y ago
      Some lawyers think the language used in the MIT license implies a patent grant limited to the use of the licensed software. They think it would be difficult for the licensor to give a license on the software from one hand, and claim a patent infringement on the same software from the other hand, but as far as I know, this was never tested in court.
    - ballenf 9y ago
      Not to mention the question that the older language had a perpetual patent license for anyone using the software (subject to termination under the now much-discussed rare circumstance of suing FB). So long as you were using the software under those conditions, it would be an interesting argument for how that patent license could now be unilaterally rescinded. (The new license doesn't say anything about it.)
  - hultner 9y ago
    I believe there charges shows not only well intention but also that Facebook actually cares about and listens to the community, which in the long term is many times more valuable for the ecosystem then this particular change in itself. Great work!
    - JoshMnem 9y ago
- matte_black 9y ago
  And what is this next JavaScript framework?
  - okanesen 9y ago
    I think next in this case was meant like any other framework (Vue or Angular with NativeScript) which is available and doesn't have the license issue, which React had.
    - matte_black 9y ago
      Except now React doesn’t have a license issue, so they took a step backward for nothing. Heads must be rolling.

zitterbewegung 9y ago

Of course it hurt their software adoption rate. You have very public spats by wordpress and apache over this. Think of people who couldn't convince their boss to use react / react-native because the legal department saw that PATENTS file and said NO WAY. I think they are making these moves because they see that they are going to be in a weaker position in the future and need to open their grip on these projects to make sure that other people will use it. Its probably too late though and people are moving off of it to the next javascript framework.

zapita 9y ago
> Its probably too late though and people are moving off of it to the next javascript framework. But is there a viable alternative with the same level of features and ecosystem momentum? GraphQL and React Native, in particular, seem well positioned to dominate their respective niches. That gives React a big advantage, which might counteract the licensing issues, no?
- zitterbewegung 9y ago
  If that were true then why are they changing the licence at all? They have tooling and are well positioned but what they need is big players to also back them so that people are more incentive to buy in. That is where moving the licence to MIT makes sense.
  - zapita 9y ago
    I think we are saying the same thing. Which part of what I said do you disagree with?
  - pbalau 9y ago
    To buy in for what? If literally everybody apart Facebook stops using React, the project will still go on because it powers a shitload of FB properties.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 9y ago
      But then they wouldn't get the free labor of the community.
- irrational 9y ago
  >But is there a viable alternative with the same level of features and ecosystem momentum? Does it matter? At some point something else will come along and React will go the way of jQuery. And then something else will come along and supplant whatever supplanted React.
  - qaq 9y ago
    Yes because if I need to build something right now it does not really help me that there will be something in the future to replace React.
mwcampbell 9y ago
What's the next JavaScript framework for non-web mobile apps though?
- purerandomness 9y ago
  Oh, it's 2018, nobody uses React Native anymore. We're using Weex [1] or NativeScript [2] now. [1] https://weex.incubator.apache.org/ https://weex.incubator.apache.org/ [2] https://www.nativescript.org/ https://www.nativescript.org/
  - parmesan 9y ago
    /s? React Native seems to be the only alternative to native apps as of today. Googles Flutter might be a viable alternative if they don't drop it, but it's far from production ready..
  - mlsarecmg 9y ago
    You mean, you do that? I don't get it otherwise. http://www.npmtrends.com/react-native-vs-weex-toolkit http://www.npmtrends.com/react-native-vs-weex-toolkit Native is hard, React needed years to get it even nearly right, and it did that with the community's backing. At this point RN features dozens of renderers outside of the mobile space, with some of them made by the very vendors that sell their platforms (for instance Microsofts react-native-windows). A couple of them here: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large Can't imagine why anyone would willingly want to wait another 4-5 years until Weex is where RN is today.
    - worg 9y ago
      You mind sharing the list on https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUF19IlXcAE2UC6.jpg:large ?
      - mwcampbell 9y ago
        It also irks me that that list was shared as an image. For me, it's just an inconvenience. For others, it's an accessibility problem, at least until OCR is 100% accurate. Anyway, here's the list (I tested all the URLs): Windows: https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows https://github.com/Microsoft/react-native-windows macOS: https://github.com/ptmt/react-native-macos https://github.com/ptmt/react-native-macos Linux (Qt): https://github.com/status-im/react-native-desktop https://github.com/status-im/react-native-desktop AR: https://github.com/HippoAR/react-native-arkit https://github.com/HippoAR/react-native-arkit VR: https://facebook.github.io/react-vr/ https://facebook.github.io/react-vr/ TV: https://github.com/react-tv/react-tv https://github.com/react-tv/react-tv Shell consoles: https://github.com/Yomguithereal/react-blessed https://github.com/Yomguithereal/react-blessed Word: https://github.com/nitin42/redocx https://github.com/nitin42/redocx PDF: https://github.com/diegomura/react-pdf https://github.com/diegomura/react-pdf 3D: https://github.com/Izzimach/react-three https://github.com/Izzimach/react-three Sketch app: http://airbnb.io/react-sketchapp/ http://airbnb.io/react-sketchapp/ Keynote: https://twitter.com/nishb1/status/913744410537537536 https://twitter.com/nishb1/status/913744410537537536 Hardware: https://github.com/iamdustan/react-hardware https://github.com/iamdustan/react-hardware Samplers: https://twitter.com/GabeRicard/status/911989894267973633 https://twitter.com/GabeRicard/status/911989894267973633
tomelders 9y ago
The irony being that the Apache license has an identical clause.
- thanksgiving 9y ago
  Is it identical though? My understanding was that Facebook license preserves Facebook's right to sure you for patent infringement but prohibits you from suing Facebook (and more importantly anyone Facebook designates as its minion) for patent infringement. So your patent portfolio is worthless if you want to use Facebook software because I'd imagine anyone can appeal Facebook for patronage? I thought it was a good thing personally because patent lawsuits are a waste of everyone's time but apparently enough people disagree. Not that I know anything. Sorry for rambling. Point is I want to ask the question: are they (practically) identical?
- dbmikus 9y ago
  The Apache patent grant and retaliation clause says that if you issue a lawsuit alleging that the licensed software infringes on a patent, then you lose your patent grant to that software. The old Facebook license said that if you issue a patent lawsuit against Facebook, you lose the license to the software. That is in addition to the retaliation clause about the software itself. So if you are using any OSS from Facebook, and then Facebook comes in and infringes on some unrelated patent you own, you need to stop using that software before suing or you just don't sue.
schrep 9y ago
Actually we just thought it was a shame that people wouldn’t use it because of the license. Not much more complicated than that.
- akie 9y ago
  Someone on Reddit argued that the new legal situation is worse because the PATENTS clause provided protection against litigation unless you sued Facebook first. Licensing under MIT, s/he argued, theoretically opens you up to litigation at any time IF Facebook decides to enforce any patents. So I was wondering: as far as you know, does Facebook have any patents on React or React Native?
  - ngrilly 9y ago
    Some lawyers think the language used in the MIT license implies a patent grant limited to the use of the licensed software. They think it would be difficult for the licensor to give a license on the software from one hand, and claim a patent infringement on the same software from the other hand, but as far as I know, this was never tested in court.
  - ballenf 9y ago
    Not to mention the question that the older language had a perpetual patent license for anyone using the software (subject to termination under the now much-discussed rare circumstance of suing FB). So long as you were using the software under those conditions, it would be an interesting argument for how that patent license could now be unilaterally rescinded. (The new license doesn't say anything about it.)
- hultner 9y ago
  I believe there charges shows not only well intention but also that Facebook actually cares about and listens to the community, which in the long term is many times more valuable for the ecosystem then this particular change in itself. Great work!
  - JoshMnem 9y ago
matte_black 9y ago
And what is this next JavaScript framework?
- okanesen 9y ago
  I think next in this case was meant like any other framework (Vue or Angular with NativeScript) which is available and doesn't have the license issue, which React had.
  - matte_black 9y ago
    Except now React doesn’t have a license issue, so they took a step backward for nothing. Heads must be rolling.