5 ms·

What core assumptions was he attacking specifically? Can you point to specific in his memo?

rayiner 9y ago
It’s a core assumption that when it comes to employment, men and women are generally similar at a cognitive level and equally well suited to different white-collar professions. We adopted that presumption as a protective mechanism, when we came out of a long period of invoking pseudo-scientific ideas about differences between men and women to justify sexism.
- ThomPete 9y ago
  Can you point to anywhere in his memo where he claims that men and women's cognitive level is different? Again I have read this quite a few times and I don't see it. So can you point me to exactly where he claims that?
  - tptacek 9y ago
    These kinds of objections will draw approving nods from people who already agree with you, but to everyone else, the implication that differences in IQ variance between men and women lead the "top of the curve" to be naturally overpopulated with men is exactly what it sounds like: a claim for the intellectual superiority of men. Sure, there are dumb men; maybe they're even dumber than the dumbest women! But if you're looking for the best, that logic says, you're going to end up mostly with men. But put that aside and just try to engage with the simultaneously naive and arrogant assumption that the people Google hires --- people, we assume, like Damore --- must somehow represent the top of that curve. Because what they do is just so demanding. I work in this field, at a pretty deeply technical level, and when I hear other people in it make arguments premised on the notion that what we do demands the pinnacle of human cognitive ability, I just want to hide under a rock from embarrassment.
    - alexandercrohde 9y ago
      Wait, what? Damore's memo doesn't mention intelligence or IQ at all [1], not even in the abstract or as distributions or as averages. -- Using the version of the memo cited on the wikipedia page https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversitymemo-static.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversity...
      - tptacek 9y ago
        I'm not interested in rereading the version of the memo that was published publicly. I'm working from the direct quotes in the NLRB Advice Memo. I believe that what you read was not what was circulated inside Google, but Damore is not at pains to tell you that.
        Chris2048 9y ago
        My understanding is that the version distributed was a draft purposefully leaked, rather than distributed by Damore. Why should this be representative here? Shouldn't the leaker be punished for the fallout of distributing the draft, if the final version was more nuanced?
      - tdg 9y ago
        It definitely mentions it. Here (section "Why we are blind"): "[...] the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" I don't know how else to read that other than "men are smarter". Is there any other reading?
        ThomPete 9y ago
        Yes, of course, there are. The correct reading is that there is biological difference both between the sexes and inside each of the sexes. This is a reference to the identity politics you see especially in 2ndwave/3rd wave feminism which claims that almost everything is a social construct.
  - tdg 9y ago
    Here (section "Why we are blind"): "[...] the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" I don't know how else to read that other than "men are smarter". Is there any other reading?
    - ThomPete 9y ago
      Yes, of course, there is. The correct reading is that there is biological difference both between the sexes and inside each of the sexes. This is a reference to the identity politics you see especially in 2ndwave/3rd wave feminism which claims that almost everything is a social construct. He isn't talking about who is better just that there are differences.
      - tdg 9y ago
        My reply is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398806
        ThomPete 9y ago
        And mine is here What is it you don't get? He is referencing the people (mostly feminists on the left) who claim there are no biological differences and that almost everything is social constructs. If you want to understand what he is talking about here is an example https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity/race-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-i...
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      It's just possible to read it as a poorly written attempt to say that the Left ignores science on biological IQ differences (perhaps, as is quite popular to point to on the Right, those associated with race) and also biological sex differences, rather than it being intended to refer to biological, sex-linked, IQ differences.
      - 9y ago
- golemiprague 9y ago
  You might have this core assumption, I and many others don't and since it is only an assumption I don't see any problem in questioning it. I find women and men very different in their cognitive ability, in terms of creativity and in terms of temperament. I am just not stupid enough like this Google guy to admit it in public because I don't want the backlash but I got no problem saying it anonymously. That's how you wake up one day with Trump as your president.

It’s a core assumption that when it comes to employment, men and women are generally similar at a cognitive level and equally well suited to different white-collar professions. We adopted that presumption as a protective mechanism, when we came out of a long period of invoking pseudo-scientific ideas about differences between men and women to justify sexism.

ThomPete 9y ago
Can you point to anywhere in his memo where he claims that men and women's cognitive level is different? Again I have read this quite a few times and I don't see it. So can you point me to exactly where he claims that?
- tptacek 9y ago
  These kinds of objections will draw approving nods from people who already agree with you, but to everyone else, the implication that differences in IQ variance between men and women lead the "top of the curve" to be naturally overpopulated with men is exactly what it sounds like: a claim for the intellectual superiority of men. Sure, there are dumb men; maybe they're even dumber than the dumbest women! But if you're looking for the best, that logic says, you're going to end up mostly with men. But put that aside and just try to engage with the simultaneously naive and arrogant assumption that the people Google hires --- people, we assume, like Damore --- must somehow represent the top of that curve. Because what they do is just so demanding. I work in this field, at a pretty deeply technical level, and when I hear other people in it make arguments premised on the notion that what we do demands the pinnacle of human cognitive ability, I just want to hide under a rock from embarrassment.
  - alexandercrohde 9y ago
    Wait, what? Damore's memo doesn't mention intelligence or IQ at all [1], not even in the abstract or as distributions or as averages. -- Using the version of the memo cited on the wikipedia page https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversitymemo-static.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/Googles-Ideological-Echo-Chamber.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20170809220001/https://diversity...
    - tptacek 9y ago
      I'm not interested in rereading the version of the memo that was published publicly. I'm working from the direct quotes in the NLRB Advice Memo. I believe that what you read was not what was circulated inside Google, but Damore is not at pains to tell you that.
      - Chris2048 9y ago
        My understanding is that the version distributed was a draft purposefully leaked, rather than distributed by Damore. Why should this be representative here? Shouldn't the leaker be punished for the fallout of distributing the draft, if the final version was more nuanced?
    - tdg 9y ago
      It definitely mentions it. Here (section "Why we are blind"): "[...] the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" I don't know how else to read that other than "men are smarter". Is there any other reading?
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        Yes, of course, there are. The correct reading is that there is biological difference both between the sexes and inside each of the sexes. This is a reference to the identity politics you see especially in 2ndwave/3rd wave feminism which claims that almost everything is a social construct.
- tdg 9y ago
  Here (section "Why we are blind"): "[...] the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ and sex differences)" I don't know how else to read that other than "men are smarter". Is there any other reading?
  - ThomPete 9y ago
    Yes, of course, there is. The correct reading is that there is biological difference both between the sexes and inside each of the sexes. This is a reference to the identity politics you see especially in 2ndwave/3rd wave feminism which claims that almost everything is a social construct. He isn't talking about who is better just that there are differences.
    - tdg 9y ago
      My reply is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398806 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16398806
      - ThomPete 9y ago
        And mine is here What is it you don't get? He is referencing the people (mostly feminists on the left) who claim there are no biological differences and that almost everything is social constructs. If you want to understand what he is talking about here is an example https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-is-racial-identity/race-and-racial-identity-are-social-constructs https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2015/06/16/how-fluid-i...
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    It's just possible to read it as a poorly written attempt to say that the Left ignores science on biological IQ differences (perhaps, as is quite popular to point to on the Right, those associated with race) and also biological sex differences, rather than it being intended to refer to biological, sex-linked, IQ differences.
    - 9y ago
golemiprague 9y ago
You might have this core assumption, I and many others don't and since it is only an assumption I don't see any problem in questioning it. I find women and men very different in their cognitive ability, in terms of creativity and in terms of temperament. I am just not stupid enough like this Google guy to admit it in public because I don't want the backlash but I got no problem saying it anonymously. That's how you wake up one day with Trump as your president.