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The quote talks about abilities, which you said the memo did not say anything about. Damore was positing that both women's preferences and abilities is why you

The quote talks about abilities, which you said the memo did not say anything about. Damore was positing that both women's preferences and abilities is why you see less women in tech and leadership positions.

manfredo 9y ago
From my original comment in this chain: > ...also claimed higher variance, but not overall differences. In other words that there are more men on both sides of the extreme. This is in reference to what the memo says about abilities. The memo does claim higher or lower overall averages, too, but those are in terms of preferences. Let me lay this out point by point if I phrased this poorly before: * The memo claims that women and men have different averages in preferences. * That men and women have different distributions of abilities. * The memo does not claim that there are different average of abilities. Point #3 is what the parent comment claimed, among other things, and that is wrong.
- bduerst 9y ago
  Also from your original comment: >This is a statement of women's choices, not their ability. Edit: Rather than reply, you now edited your comment to split hairs on distribution vs averages. That doesn't change the facts about Damore's argument about biological ability to be in tech is unfounded.
  - manfredo 9y ago
    Hacker news wasn't letting me reply, so I put the classification in an edit. It didn't change the content of what I wrote, just added a clearer (I hope) phrasing. I have not once mentioned biology in this comment chain. I made my original comment to dispel the myth that Damore claimed that women have, on average, less intelligence than men. Whether you agree or disagree with the other claims made about biology is orthogonal to this statement.
    - bduerst 9y ago
      You're right, you tried to reclassify what Damore said with this: >This is a statement of women's choices, not their ability. When his argument was about biological ability. Damore's paper is orthogonal from you're claiming it to be.
  - berberous 9y ago
    The difference between distribution vs. averages is important. See the image linked to below. Damore is arguing the top half of the image. Many people mistakenly believe he is arguing the bottom half. Perhaps you believe the top half is unfounded too, but it's an important distinction. https://heterodoxacademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Damore-population-figure.png https://heterodoxacademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Damo...
    - bduerst 9y ago
      Right. And what many have said is that there is not enough evidence in his to support the top half on his claim of biological abilities. Preferences, sure, but that can also be attributed to social constructs which he specifically tries to rule out. It's splitting hairs to make it about distribution when there isn't sufficient evidence to support a distribution in the first place.
      - berberous 9y ago
        Here is an article from Heterdox academy that attempted to do a metanalysis of studies to determine if Damore was correct in saying there are certain traits that men display a wider distribution on. They conclude he was. I have not personally looked at any of this data, nor vouch for it or Damore's or their conclusion. It could be wrong, either because the current best science is wrong or because the summary is unfair or inaccurate. My only point is that it appears to be a statement with some scientific support, not something that can easily be dismissed as false. http://heterodoxacademy.org/the-greater-male-variability-hypothesis/ http://heterodoxacademy.org/the-greater-male-variability-hyp...

manfredo 9y ago

From my original comment in this chain: > ...also claimed higher variance, but not overall differences. In other words that there are more men on both sides of the extreme. This is in reference to what the memo says about abilities. The memo does claim higher or lower overall averages, too, but those are in terms of preferences. Let me lay this out point by point if I phrased this poorly before: * The memo claims that women and men have different averages in preferences. * That men and women have different distributions of abilities. * The memo does not claim that there are different average of abilities. Point #3 is what the parent comment claimed, among other things, and that is wrong.

bduerst 9y ago
Also from your original comment: >This is a statement of women's choices, not their ability. Edit: Rather than reply, you now edited your comment to split hairs on distribution vs averages. That doesn't change the facts about Damore's argument about biological ability to be in tech is unfounded.
- manfredo 9y ago
  Hacker news wasn't letting me reply, so I put the classification in an edit. It didn't change the content of what I wrote, just added a clearer (I hope) phrasing. I have not once mentioned biology in this comment chain. I made my original comment to dispel the myth that Damore claimed that women have, on average, less intelligence than men. Whether you agree or disagree with the other claims made about biology is orthogonal to this statement.
  - bduerst 9y ago
    You're right, you tried to reclassify what Damore said with this: >This is a statement of women's choices, not their ability. When his argument was about biological ability. Damore's paper is orthogonal from you're claiming it to be.
- berberous 9y ago
  The difference between distribution vs. averages is important. See the image linked to below. Damore is arguing the top half of the image. Many people mistakenly believe he is arguing the bottom half. Perhaps you believe the top half is unfounded too, but it's an important distinction. https://heterodoxacademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Damore-population-figure.png https://heterodoxacademy.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Damo...
  - bduerst 9y ago
    Right. And what many have said is that there is not enough evidence in his to support the top half on his claim of biological abilities. Preferences, sure, but that can also be attributed to social constructs which he specifically tries to rule out. It's splitting hairs to make it about distribution when there isn't sufficient evidence to support a distribution in the first place.
    - berberous 9y ago
      Here is an article from Heterdox academy that attempted to do a metanalysis of studies to determine if Damore was correct in saying there are certain traits that men display a wider distribution on. They conclude he was. I have not personally looked at any of this data, nor vouch for it or Damore's or their conclusion. It could be wrong, either because the current best science is wrong or because the summary is unfair or inaccurate. My only point is that it appears to be a statement with some scientific support, not something that can easily be dismissed as false. http://heterodoxacademy.org/the-greater-male-variability-hypothesis/ http://heterodoxacademy.org/the-greater-male-variability-hyp...