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The manual didn't tell you anything. The books didn't tell you anything. They scratched the surface, which if you knew nothing might have seemed profound, even

The manual didn't tell you anything. The books didn't tell you anything. They scratched the surface, which if you knew nothing might have seemed profound, even mind-blowing, but if you were trying to do anything non-trivial you were left grasping for answers. I tried to build games on the C64 using BASIC and, while I had some success, the results were always limited by the fact that it was in BASIC, it was going to be slow, and that planning and editing your code was extremely painful, you didn't even have a proper text editor. The real way to develop on the C64 was with assembly. Unfortunately, finding information on how to do this was virtually impossible. Almost no books existed, and those that did were rare and expensive. Even when you got the book you were missing huge chunks of knowledge: The CPU itself is just 10% of the problem, the rest is knowing the memory layout, the supporting chips, and so on, stuff that wasn't well known. The methods employed by actual production games were dark and mysterious, often close to protected secrets. You were welcome to painfully disassemble these games, but you also had no tools, not even a basic assembler, unless you went out and bought one. Today it's easier than ever to build games for vintage hardware because everything, every little thing, is lovingly documented. This was absolutely not the case in the 1980s.

jonathankoren 9y ago
Why didn't you just buy the Commodore Programmers Reference Guide[0]? It had an entire guide to C64 machine language, and circuit schematics. The book even tells you to buy the 64MON cartridge if you're serious about programming in assembly. This book wasn't rare. A friend of mine had it, we lived in the middle of nowhere. These programs and cartridges were not rare. I had multiple catalogs for buying these things as kid. The best programming books had code listings on page, and line by line explanations on the facing page. [0] https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_Programmer%27s_Reference_Guide https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_Programmer%27s_Re...
- ryandrake 9y ago
  Funny... I didn't even know that book existed until I was a few years into learning how to program my C64. I honestly thought you were supposed to figure things out by randomly PEEKing and POKEing addresses to see what they did. I had complete tech illiterate parents and no mentors existed to point me in the right direction. I remember visiting some other kid who had a C64, and his dad had given him the Programmer's Reference Manual. He never opened it and didn't care about programming at all (he just used the thing to play games). I cracked that book open and my mind was blown!
  - u801e 9y ago
    I thought the guide that came with the C64 mentioned the Programmer's Reference Manual. I remember asking my dad to get a copy and he told me that I had to finish the first book before we could get it. > I cracked that book open and my mind was blown! I really wish I had had the opportunity to read through one when I was younger.
    - jonathankoren 9y ago
      It did. The last page of the User's Guide[0] that came packaged with every C64 says: > Commodore hopes you've enjoyed the COMMODORE 64 USER'S GUIDE. Although this manual contains some programming information and tips, it is NOT intended to be a Programmer's Reference Manual. For those of you who are advanced programmers and computer hobbyists Commodore suggests that you consider purchasing the COMMODORE 64 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE GUIDE available through your local Commodore dealer. Honestly, until I checked the PDF just now, I thought the User's Guide came with a card to order it through the mail. [0] http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/c64_users_guide/c64-users_guide.htm http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/c64_users_guide/c64-users_gu...
      - astrodust 9y ago
        My "local dealer" was a Radio Shack and they didn't sell anything Commodore related. If you wanted to know about Tandy, though, did they ever have you covered!
- astrodust 9y ago
  If my local library didn't have it, and the local bookstore didn't have it, the book may as well have not existed. The local bookstore was the size of a shoe store and carried a handful of popular titles and the most technical books they had were about building decks or, if you were lucky, rebuilding motorcycles. You say the book wasn't rare, but I didn't know anyone who had one, or who even had access to one. I had a friend with a technical reference like that, but it was for the Apple ][, so that was no use. The only access to computers at all was at the local school, and the faculty had no idea how to use them for anything other than to train kids on typing. Now that book is available online for free which is a sterling example of how much things have changed. Anyone who wants this information can get it if they look hard enough, and anyone with questions can get them answered by experts.

jonathankoren 9y ago

Why didn't you just buy the Commodore Programmers Reference Guide[0]? It had an entire guide to C64 machine language, and circuit schematics. The book even tells you to buy the 64MON cartridge if you're serious about programming in assembly. This book wasn't rare. A friend of mine had it, we lived in the middle of nowhere. These programs and cartridges were not rare. I had multiple catalogs for buying these things as kid. The best programming books had code listings on page, and line by line explanations on the facing page. [0] https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_Programmer%27s_Reference_Guide https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/Commodore_64_Programmer%27s_Re...

ryandrake 9y ago
Funny... I didn't even know that book existed until I was a few years into learning how to program my C64. I honestly thought you were supposed to figure things out by randomly PEEKing and POKEing addresses to see what they did. I had complete tech illiterate parents and no mentors existed to point me in the right direction. I remember visiting some other kid who had a C64, and his dad had given him the Programmer's Reference Manual. He never opened it and didn't care about programming at all (he just used the thing to play games). I cracked that book open and my mind was blown!
- u801e 9y ago
  I thought the guide that came with the C64 mentioned the Programmer's Reference Manual. I remember asking my dad to get a copy and he told me that I had to finish the first book before we could get it. > I cracked that book open and my mind was blown! I really wish I had had the opportunity to read through one when I was younger.
  - jonathankoren 9y ago
    It did. The last page of the User's Guide[0] that came packaged with every C64 says: > Commodore hopes you've enjoyed the COMMODORE 64 USER'S GUIDE. Although this manual contains some programming information and tips, it is NOT intended to be a Programmer's Reference Manual. For those of you who are advanced programmers and computer hobbyists Commodore suggests that you consider purchasing the COMMODORE 64 PROGRAMMER'S REFERENCE GUIDE available through your local Commodore dealer. Honestly, until I checked the PDF just now, I thought the User's Guide came with a card to order it through the mail. [0] http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/c64_users_guide/c64-users_guide.htm http://www.commodore.ca/manuals/c64_users_guide/c64-users_gu...
    - astrodust 9y ago
      My "local dealer" was a Radio Shack and they didn't sell anything Commodore related. If you wanted to know about Tandy, though, did they ever have you covered!
astrodust 9y ago
If my local library didn't have it, and the local bookstore didn't have it, the book may as well have not existed. The local bookstore was the size of a shoe store and carried a handful of popular titles and the most technical books they had were about building decks or, if you were lucky, rebuilding motorcycles. You say the book wasn't rare, but I didn't know anyone who had one, or who even had access to one. I had a friend with a technical reference like that, but it was for the Apple ][, so that was no use. The only access to computers at all was at the local school, and the faculty had no idea how to use them for anything other than to train kids on typing. Now that book is available online for free which is a sterling example of how much things have changed. Anyone who wants this information can get it if they look hard enough, and anyone with questions can get them answered by experts.