7 ms·

This is really not nice for Open Source. I can understand that Oracle wants to make money, but they are really creating big barriers for corporations using Java

This is really not nice for Open Source. I can understand that Oracle wants to make money, but they are really creating big barriers for corporations using Java. The lawsuit is marking the start of Java's decline. Its a matter of time before something replaces it.

swannodette 16y ago
While I see the Google vs. Oracle Java struggle getting ugly, I don't think this marks the decline of Java at all. Most corporations invested in Java are not building their own version of Java- do they really care how this goes down? In addition what language is in any position to replace Java?
- someone_here 16y ago
  what language is in any position to replace Java? Previously, it was any new implementation of the VM...
  - swannodette 16y ago
    Sadly a virtual machine by itself just isn't good enough anymore. The maturity and performance of the JVM shows. That kind of infrastructures takes oh ... about 20 years to build. Until the current crop of JVM based languages showed up my interest in the Java the language waned. But now that you can use your language of choice and still tap into JVM libraries, perf and the high quality profiling tools, the JVM is compelling again. Also experience stories like this, http://blog.urbanairship.com/blog/tag/java/ http://blog.urbanairship.com/blog/tag/java/, show that as great as Python and Ruby are for building websites, surprise, surprise, they don't have the performance for the real-time web.
    - amix 16y ago
      Java isn't really that good fit for real-time web applications as it usually eats a lot memory - especially if you compare it to C/C++ or node.js (V8). A while ago I rewrote a system from Java (that used JBoss Netty) to node.js. The node.js solution used about 10x less memory. And memory is a crucial element of scaling real-time web applications.
      - swannodette 16y ago
        What you mean is that your real-time application was largely memory bound - other apps might require that sanely and rapidly coordinating access to shared state might be more critical than the cost of memory- with a collaborative whiteboard or the backend of a MMORPG you're probably going to run into difficulties with C/C++ and Node.js might very well be useless. There are domains where shared nothing just doesn't work.
- wicknicks 16y ago
  Maybe there is no language which will immediately replace Java, but as noodle pointed out, its going to stagnate. Like what happened to C. C is being used in many companies, because they have so much stuff already written in it and cannot afford a re-write. But the community will slowly shift to other languages. We can already see that in terms of Scala/Clojure - both very promising languages.
  - strlen 16y ago
    Scala and Clojure run on the JVM. There's very little to Java as far as syntax goes, it's basically C++ without MI, operator overloading or real templates. The real value is in the runtime: the standard library, the concurrency model, the virtual machine. That part is threatened by the litigation as well. Building your own competing JVM can, as this suit demonstrated, get you sued too.
noodle 16y ago
> Its a matter of time before something replaces it. replaces it for new development, perhaps. java itself will probably never go away now, though, lawsuit or not. its footprint is just too huge now. at worst, it'll just stagnate.
KeithMajhor 16y ago
Is Microsoft's runtime any more open? I've been more and more impressed with Mono lately. Does it potentially face the same issues Java is facing now?
- icey 16y ago
  This may answer some of your questions: http://www.mono-project.com/MonoConcerns http://www.mono-project.com/MonoConcerns
- sprout 16y ago
  Actually, it faces even bigger issues, since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for. Java at least has a solid grant of patents so long as you're using the GPL version. Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future. In a certain sense, this is the intent of the GPL rearing its ugly head. When Oracle says Android violates their copyright, it seems like what they mean is they've taken GPL code (the Java standard) and re-implemented it under a different license. Though I'm in no way deep in enough to say that authoritatively, and like the entire suit the rationale seems questionable to say the least. A potential Microsoft suit looks to be allowed by the Mono licensing.
  - viraptor 16y ago
    I'm not sure what you're referring to in a couple of places: > since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for What do you mean? The MS-Novel patent deal was done long time ago. Now, there is a better document in place: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx - both C# and CLI are covered and no implementation is pointed at. It stops them from suing for "making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or distributing any implementation" - as long as it's compliant with specs. Stress is on "any implementation" here. That document doesn't mention any specific party and doesn't limit the promise to any specific group as far as I can see. > Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future. [citation needed]
protomyth 16y ago
What's the barrier? Oracle has business relationships with most companies using Java and this does not affect OpenJDK, IBM, or any other licensee.

swannodette 16y ago

While I see the Google vs. Oracle Java struggle getting ugly, I don't think this marks the decline of Java at all. Most corporations invested in Java are not building their own version of Java- do they really care how this goes down? In addition what language is in any position to replace Java?

someone_here 16y ago
what language is in any position to replace Java? Previously, it was any new implementation of the VM...
- swannodette 16y ago
  Sadly a virtual machine by itself just isn't good enough anymore. The maturity and performance of the JVM shows. That kind of infrastructures takes oh ... about 20 years to build. Until the current crop of JVM based languages showed up my interest in the Java the language waned. But now that you can use your language of choice and still tap into JVM libraries, perf and the high quality profiling tools, the JVM is compelling again. Also experience stories like this, http://blog.urbanairship.com/blog/tag/java/ http://blog.urbanairship.com/blog/tag/java/, show that as great as Python and Ruby are for building websites, surprise, surprise, they don't have the performance for the real-time web.
  - amix 16y ago
    Java isn't really that good fit for real-time web applications as it usually eats a lot memory - especially if you compare it to C/C++ or node.js (V8). A while ago I rewrote a system from Java (that used JBoss Netty) to node.js. The node.js solution used about 10x less memory. And memory is a crucial element of scaling real-time web applications.
    - swannodette 16y ago
      What you mean is that your real-time application was largely memory bound - other apps might require that sanely and rapidly coordinating access to shared state might be more critical than the cost of memory- with a collaborative whiteboard or the backend of a MMORPG you're probably going to run into difficulties with C/C++ and Node.js might very well be useless. There are domains where shared nothing just doesn't work.
wicknicks 16y ago
Maybe there is no language which will immediately replace Java, but as noodle pointed out, its going to stagnate. Like what happened to C. C is being used in many companies, because they have so much stuff already written in it and cannot afford a re-write. But the community will slowly shift to other languages. We can already see that in terms of Scala/Clojure - both very promising languages.
- strlen 16y ago
  Scala and Clojure run on the JVM. There's very little to Java as far as syntax goes, it's basically C++ without MI, operator overloading or real templates. The real value is in the runtime: the standard library, the concurrency model, the virtual machine. That part is threatened by the litigation as well. Building your own competing JVM can, as this suit demonstrated, get you sued too.

noodle 16y ago

> Its a matter of time before something replaces it. replaces it for new development, perhaps. java itself will probably never go away now, though, lawsuit or not. its footprint is just too huge now. at worst, it'll just stagnate.

KeithMajhor 16y ago

Is Microsoft's runtime any more open? I've been more and more impressed with Mono lately. Does it potentially face the same issues Java is facing now?

icey 16y ago
This may answer some of your questions: http://www.mono-project.com/MonoConcerns http://www.mono-project.com/MonoConcerns
sprout 16y ago
Actually, it faces even bigger issues, since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for. Java at least has a solid grant of patents so long as you're using the GPL version. Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future. In a certain sense, this is the intent of the GPL rearing its ugly head. When Oracle says Android violates their copyright, it seems like what they mean is they've taken GPL code (the Java standard) and re-implemented it under a different license. Though I'm in no way deep in enough to say that authoritatively, and like the entire suit the rationale seems questionable to say the least. A potential Microsoft suit looks to be allowed by the Mono licensing.
- viraptor 16y ago
  I'm not sure what you're referring to in a couple of places: > since you essentially have to be using a version of Mono that is paid for What do you mean? The MS-Novel patent deal was done long time ago. Now, there is a better document in place: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx - both C# and CLI are covered and no implementation is pointed at. It stops them from suing for "making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or distributing any implementation" - as long as it's compliant with specs. Stress is on "any implementation" here. That document doesn't mention any specific party and doesn't limit the promise to any specific group as far as I can see. > Microsoft has intentionally worded their licenses to allow them to sue anyone who isn't paying for their software in the future. [citation needed]

protomyth 16y ago

What's the barrier? Oracle has business relationships with most companies using Java and this does not affect OpenJDK, IBM, or any other licensee.