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> idiotic "collusion" story Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. A few days later, Trump

> idiotic "collusion" story Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. A few days later, Trump Sr. delivered his famous "Russia if you're listening ... [deliver what was discussed in that meeting] ... you'll be rewarded" line.

philwelch 9y ago
Not to mention that Trump had to fire one of his campaign managers for receiving illegal payments while working for the campaign of Russian-aligned Ukrainian president Yanukovych.
smsm42 9y ago
> Bullshit: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agent, who inexplicably got entry visa she shouldn't be getting by direct involvement of Obama State Department, and who falsely promised to provide him some dirt on Clinton, in Trump Tower, and the agent in fact attempted to lobby him to remove Magnitsky Act sanctions. As soon as the ruse became apparent, Trump Jr. left. FTFY. The information that Veselnitskaya pretended to have is the same information Mueller is talking about now - about foreign financing of US electoral campaign, which everybody agrees now would be a crime, and certainly something one would want to hear about. But there was no information, it was a lie. Note that by all reports DNC hacking happened as early as 2015. Podesta emails were hacked in March 2016. Trump Jr. met Veselnitskaya on June 9, 2016, when all the hacking was already done. Unless Russians also mastered time travel, they couldn't really negotiate anything, as everything has already happened. > Russia if you're listening ... [deliver what was discussed in that meeting] ... you'll be rewarded" line. Fascinating. The full line is: 'Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,' Trump said. 'I think you'll be rewarded mightily by our press!' You dropped the "by our press" part, because it didn't fit your narrative, and hoped I wouldn't notice? Or you genuinely didn't know what the full quote was? And of course 30000 emails are the ones Clinton unlawfully concealed and then deleted from her records, which were supposed to be preserved, not the ones that were stolen from DNC or Podesta - which by then weren't published yet and Trump had no idea about. Not to mention this was obviously a sarcastic joke. But if that is what your "collusion" is, this is what mightiest security apparatus on a planet is busying itself for two years now - I think Trump is criticizing them way, way to mildly to reveal all the depth of the idiocy of this.
- willstrafach 9y ago
  > and who falsely promised to provide him some dirt I am curious if you believe this is OK
  - smsm42 9y ago
    Depends on what you mean by "OK". Is it the conduct I would recommend for everybody as highest example of human virtue? Not sure. Is it conduct commonly happening in the midst of political campaign? Most certainly yes, and much worse. In this case, Veselnitskaya told them "Hillary campaign just committed a federal crime, and I have proof. Want to see it?" Of course they did. The mistake was to believe anything Russians say about anything and sending a figure as big as Trump Jr. without several layers of further verification. That definitely was a screw-up, a rookie mistake. For which they paid dearly.
    - marshray 9y ago
      > Is it conduct commonly happening in the midst of political campaign? Most certainly yes, and much worse. Please list some examples of other US politicians accepting election assistance from foreign governments.
      - smsm42 9y ago
        Walter Mondale: Democrats actually contacted the KGB and sought help to defeat Reagan in 1984. The organizer of it was Ted Kennedy. Barack Obama: famously promised to Medvedev to be more flexible after the election, in exchange for Russian not pressing on the missile defense issue when it could hurt Obama's position. Hillary Clinton: accepted money donations from foreign politicians with US interests many times. The fact that Clinton Foundation and Clinton Campaign were big buddies is an open secret by now. Though of course that happened not only connected to elections, so attributing it specifically to elections would probably be very limiting to the scope. I would also bring Steele dossier here, but the involvement of specifically foreign government here is unproven - while I'd give more than even chance that many of the allegations there were created by Russian intelligence sources, it may also be a regular "our man in Havana" type affair, so it's not entirely sure. But I don't see why it specifically must be the government. If it's OK to accept dirt on your opponent (let's limit ourselves to dirt that is true and exclude fraud for now), then why is it not OK to accept it from a foreigner? It doesn't become less true because foreigner touched it. And if it's ok to accept it from a random foreigner, why it's not OK to accept it from a foreigner which is paid by foreign government? What seems to be less OK is to solicit it in an explicit quid-pro-quo arrangement, either monetary or otherwise. Of which, in Trump's case, there's no indication (though the first example is a classic specimen).

philwelch 9y ago

Not to mention that Trump had to fire one of his campaign managers for receiving illegal payments while working for the campaign of Russian-aligned Ukrainian president Yanukovych.

smsm42 9y ago

> Bullshit: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agent, who inexplicably got entry visa she shouldn't be getting by direct involvement of Obama State Department, and who falsely promised to provide him some dirt on Clinton, in Trump Tower, and the agent in fact attempted to lobby him to remove Magnitsky Act sanctions. As soon as the ruse became apparent, Trump Jr. left. FTFY. The information that Veselnitskaya pretended to have is the same information Mueller is talking about now - about foreign financing of US electoral campaign, which everybody agrees now would be a crime, and certainly something one would want to hear about. But there was no information, it was a lie. Note that by all reports DNC hacking happened as early as 2015. Podesta emails were hacked in March 2016. Trump Jr. met Veselnitskaya on June 9, 2016, when all the hacking was already done. Unless Russians also mastered time travel, they couldn't really negotiate anything, as everything has already happened. > Russia if you're listening ... [deliver what was discussed in that meeting] ... you'll be rewarded" line. Fascinating. The full line is: 'Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,' Trump said. 'I think you'll be rewarded mightily by our press!' You dropped the "by our press" part, because it didn't fit your narrative, and hoped I wouldn't notice? Or you genuinely didn't know what the full quote was? And of course 30000 emails are the ones Clinton unlawfully concealed and then deleted from her records, which were supposed to be preserved, not the ones that were stolen from DNC or Podesta - which by then weren't published yet and Trump had no idea about. Not to mention this was obviously a sarcastic joke. But if that is what your "collusion" is, this is what mightiest security apparatus on a planet is busying itself for two years now - I think Trump is criticizing them way, way to mildly to reveal all the depth of the idiocy of this.

willstrafach 9y ago
> and who falsely promised to provide him some dirt I am curious if you believe this is OK
- smsm42 9y ago
  Depends on what you mean by "OK". Is it the conduct I would recommend for everybody as highest example of human virtue? Not sure. Is it conduct commonly happening in the midst of political campaign? Most certainly yes, and much worse. In this case, Veselnitskaya told them "Hillary campaign just committed a federal crime, and I have proof. Want to see it?" Of course they did. The mistake was to believe anything Russians say about anything and sending a figure as big as Trump Jr. without several layers of further verification. That definitely was a screw-up, a rookie mistake. For which they paid dearly.
  - marshray 9y ago
    > Is it conduct commonly happening in the midst of political campaign? Most certainly yes, and much worse. Please list some examples of other US politicians accepting election assistance from foreign governments.
    - smsm42 9y ago
      Walter Mondale: Democrats actually contacted the KGB and sought help to defeat Reagan in 1984. The organizer of it was Ted Kennedy. Barack Obama: famously promised to Medvedev to be more flexible after the election, in exchange for Russian not pressing on the missile defense issue when it could hurt Obama's position. Hillary Clinton: accepted money donations from foreign politicians with US interests many times. The fact that Clinton Foundation and Clinton Campaign were big buddies is an open secret by now. Though of course that happened not only connected to elections, so attributing it specifically to elections would probably be very limiting to the scope. I would also bring Steele dossier here, but the involvement of specifically foreign government here is unproven - while I'd give more than even chance that many of the allegations there were created by Russian intelligence sources, it may also be a regular "our man in Havana" type affair, so it's not entirely sure. But I don't see why it specifically must be the government. If it's OK to accept dirt on your opponent (let's limit ourselves to dirt that is true and exclude fraud for now), then why is it not OK to accept it from a foreigner? It doesn't become less true because foreigner touched it. And if it's ok to accept it from a random foreigner, why it's not OK to accept it from a foreigner which is paid by foreign government? What seems to be less OK is to solicit it in an explicit quid-pro-quo arrangement, either monetary or otherwise. Of which, in Trump's case, there's no indication (though the first example is a classic specimen).