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> Teaching these skills in CS curriculum would probably be a good idea. This is the one thing I don't agree with. A better placement for these skills is a gene

> Teaching these skills in CS curriculum would probably be a good idea. This is the one thing I don't agree with. A better placement for these skills is a generic course required for any degree, or an optional course that anyone could take to shore up these skills (and you could recommend it for your CS major). Importantly though, this isn't part of the field of computer science, and so it doesn't really belong in that curriculum. Now, if we had more of a "software development" or "software engineering" major, or even trade school, I think that would be a perfect area to cover practical aspects of tooling that are required to work in the field. There's a large gap between what you need to learn to become a reasonably competent programmer at most organizations and what you learn in a computer science major, and it really shows if you've ever interviewed a lot of fresh graduates. Great algorithm and theory skills, but no idea how to set up a build system. There's definitely room for a more practical education that transitions more directly into industry.

tj-teej 9y ago
I don't think the experienced engineers earlier referred to learned these things in a CS curriculum.
Retric 9y ago
There are a lot of useful skills. Teaching people how to fix a flat tire would also be rather useful. Basic computer administration falls into that huge category of useful skills that are not worth teaching to a general population who have completely viable alternatives. Specialization is extremely valuable for society and having more competent doctors etc is worth doctors having a more narrow focus.
- Griffinsauce 9y ago
  I disagree. Having a broader skill set means you can be more creative with problems. The separation between doctors and computer science is holding both fields back. Think of machine learning and big data, we are _just now_ starting to apply those ideas to medical problems, while those problems are fundamental to our existence as a species. Computers in hospitals are a chore and a drain on doctors. They should be empowering, instead doctors spend the majority of their time typing reports. Reports of things that are already registered in other parts of the system. (You're already thinking of a solution right? That proves my point) Hearing about how hospitals handle technology from my SO (neurologist) makes me want to rip my hair out. Specialization is a great thing but we need generalists to bridge the gap to help specialists empower each other.
  - Retric 9y ago
    I see zero connections between having computer administration skills and fixing those problems. Knowing how to install and troubleshoot software would be a waste of their time. Programming on the other hand would take a significant commitment to be useful. Sure having say ~1% of doctors go down that path might be useful but for the other ~95% it would be a horrible waste of time and cost literally hundreds of billions of dollars over time.
    - exDM69 9y ago
      If there were doctors and nurses who have basic computer literacy and entry level coding skills taking part in the acquisition and development process of the IT systems they use, I bet they wouldn't suck as much as they do. Most specialized software systems, e.g. those that are used in hospitals or selling you train tickets, are developed by people who don't have a faintest idea how the software is used daily. This ends up being an expensive disaster more often than not. This is why I think everyone should have basic computer literacy and programming skills. Which is not the same as everyone should be a professional quality software engineer.
      - Retric 9y ago
        Yea, even basic programming is not part of basic computer literacy. You are looking a very different and expencive in terms of time to acquire sill set. Worse, Doctors are often not part of these decisions in the first place. Further there are plenty of doctors with these skills however they don't work for cheap and most of this software is build by people that are paid as little as possible. Remember their workflow is not actually complicated, it's just not helpful when selling this software. Really, this software is not terrible because it's hard to make, it's terrible because of how it's sold and maintained.
  - pm90 9y ago
    I think you would be familiar with what it takes to become a doctor v/s a software engineer, education wise, but let me reiterate: For a doctor: 1. 4-5 years Bachelors degree 2. A Masters Degree (at least 2 years) 3. Residency (at least 2 years? And this is working weird shift at hospitals and whatnot) For a SE: Degrees are optional. Perhaps a Bachelors. So if you require the same amount of rigor from SE's, that's probably gonna scare off many who don't want to spend the better part of their youth buried in books. And since there is such a huge demand for SE's who don't need to know OS fundamentals, there is no push for having more rigor in the curriculum. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. I would certainly like there to be more generalists. But that would require the same kind of attention to credentials that doctors are put through. And I think a vast majority of current engineers are opposed to more formal education.

tj-teej 9y ago

I don't think the experienced engineers earlier referred to learned these things in a CS curriculum.

Retric 9y ago

There are a lot of useful skills. Teaching people how to fix a flat tire would also be rather useful. Basic computer administration falls into that huge category of useful skills that are not worth teaching to a general population who have completely viable alternatives. Specialization is extremely valuable for society and having more competent doctors etc is worth doctors having a more narrow focus.

Griffinsauce 9y ago
I disagree. Having a broader skill set means you can be more creative with problems. The separation between doctors and computer science is holding both fields back. Think of machine learning and big data, we are _just now_ starting to apply those ideas to medical problems, while those problems are fundamental to our existence as a species. Computers in hospitals are a chore and a drain on doctors. They should be empowering, instead doctors spend the majority of their time typing reports. Reports of things that are already registered in other parts of the system. (You're already thinking of a solution right? That proves my point) Hearing about how hospitals handle technology from my SO (neurologist) makes me want to rip my hair out. Specialization is a great thing but we need generalists to bridge the gap to help specialists empower each other.
- Retric 9y ago
  I see zero connections between having computer administration skills and fixing those problems. Knowing how to install and troubleshoot software would be a waste of their time. Programming on the other hand would take a significant commitment to be useful. Sure having say ~1% of doctors go down that path might be useful but for the other ~95% it would be a horrible waste of time and cost literally hundreds of billions of dollars over time.
  - exDM69 9y ago
    If there were doctors and nurses who have basic computer literacy and entry level coding skills taking part in the acquisition and development process of the IT systems they use, I bet they wouldn't suck as much as they do. Most specialized software systems, e.g. those that are used in hospitals or selling you train tickets, are developed by people who don't have a faintest idea how the software is used daily. This ends up being an expensive disaster more often than not. This is why I think everyone should have basic computer literacy and programming skills. Which is not the same as everyone should be a professional quality software engineer.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Yea, even basic programming is not part of basic computer literacy. You are looking a very different and expencive in terms of time to acquire sill set. Worse, Doctors are often not part of these decisions in the first place. Further there are plenty of doctors with these skills however they don't work for cheap and most of this software is build by people that are paid as little as possible. Remember their workflow is not actually complicated, it's just not helpful when selling this software. Really, this software is not terrible because it's hard to make, it's terrible because of how it's sold and maintained.
- pm90 9y ago
  I think you would be familiar with what it takes to become a doctor v/s a software engineer, education wise, but let me reiterate: For a doctor: 1. 4-5 years Bachelors degree 2. A Masters Degree (at least 2 years) 3. Residency (at least 2 years? And this is working weird shift at hospitals and whatnot) For a SE: Degrees are optional. Perhaps a Bachelors. So if you require the same amount of rigor from SE's, that's probably gonna scare off many who don't want to spend the better part of their youth buried in books. And since there is such a huge demand for SE's who don't need to know OS fundamentals, there is no push for having more rigor in the curriculum. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic. I would certainly like there to be more generalists. But that would require the same kind of attention to credentials that doctors are put through. And I think a vast majority of current engineers are opposed to more formal education.