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But those skills have nothing to do with computer science as a field of study - wouldn't they be more useful to teach in general education like K-12? Like I re

But those skills have nothing to do with computer science as a field of study - wouldn't they be more useful to teach in general education like K-12? Like I remember in middle school, we had an elective option between woodshop and CAD. The 'CAD' class was really more about performing simple automation in programs like MS Word/Excel, but that sort of thing is still useful in just about any job these days - not just programming. I really like the idea of starting to call 'CS' something like 'Informatica' so people might stop looking at the field as just a valuable career skill. Google tells me that there is now a startup called 'Informatica', but that is also what the field is called or translates to in some other countries like the Netherlands; I think https://www.cwi.nl/ https://www.cwi.nl/ could probably claim prior use. Speaking of, it seems odd to try to use an existing commonplace phrase as a trademark in the industry that the phrase was born from - it seems like it'd be impossible to argue that anyone was infringing - but I guess I'm not a corporate lawyer.

chuckdries 9y ago
ASU has a degree called 'informatics' that's run by the computer science faculty but focused more on <the application of technology to other things> rather than <the technology and creation of technology itself.> I just transferred into it from computer science, because I spend all my free time making games anyway, and the informatics program lets me take an elective track to get credit for that. I do think CS is probably a better fit for what I see as my long term plan, but I think this program has a lot of potential for people who wouldn't otherwise call themselves engineers.
currymj 9y ago
in some other languages it's basically called that. "Informatik" in German. there's still the vestigial title in some department names in the US, "Department of Computer Science and Informatics". I agree it would be a better name but I think the battle is lost, informatics now refers to an applied discipline (closely related to library science) involving building up big systems to store and organize data.
zerkten 9y ago
I think you are trying to make some good points, but your language could have been clearer. If I'm understanding correctly you mean: 1. Treat Computer Science (CS) as a specific field, and don't dilute the curriculum with related items. 2. Introduce a course that covers these broader, non-CS items, and actually push it out beyond the audience of CS? Did I get that right? I think you might have meant the term "informatics" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatics). Depending on your position CS is either subordinate, equal, or above informatics. I have a degree from a UK university and there is a much wider spectrum degree types in this field than exist here in the US where I now live. I'm conflicted on the original post that elicited your response. I have that background where I inherited a broken PC, a bunch of floppy disks, and some manuals. In some ways this gives me an advantage, especially given that I'm comfortable being dropped into a messy project or some problem that is debugged. I've seen lots of folks who can't handle this, but can churn out code on to need more support around the edges. I now see more and more folks attempting things like devops and at least being able to learn some of these skills later on. I think where it stands me in better stead is problem avoidance, but even that is subjective.
- mattmanser 9y ago
  Better to stop trying to create programmers by teaching them a theoretical discipline like CS and to teach them software engineering instead?
  - eropple 9y ago
    Frankly, I think we would need to know what software engineering looks like, outside of the spaces where engineers (like, ones with PEs) more than developers own the project, before we start teaching it to novices. I mean, I've been getting paid for this for going on fifteen years now and I'm not an engineer. I try to build resilient, reliable systems, I try to test heavily and comprehensively...but I'm not an engineer, and most of the time I'm worried when somebody calls themselves one. What "software engineering" is, in the context of a web app or a point of sale system, rather hard to define. Worth taking a crack at. But we shouldn't put the cart before the horse.
Clubber 9y ago
When I went to college, CS required 3 semesters of Calc and 3 semesters of Physics. It's almost as if CS was trying to fill in some hours. Calc and Physics are great and all, but very narrowly applicable. The only benefit is how it works your brain (and a good weed out course). I would ditch that and concentrate only on computer related issues. Database would be a big one that is usually missing. Networking as well. Computer architecture (like building a computer and the Von-Neumann model) should also be included. Basic project management would be helpful too. That's 4-6 courses you could suppliant with Physics 1-3 and Calc 1-3. It just seems silly to force CS kids to learn Physics and Calc when it is seldom used in the real world. I would much rather have a grad know the ins and outs of networking and how a computer actually works than Calc and Physics.
- namelost 9y ago
  Asymptotic notation is defined using limits. In fact a lot of concepts in CS involve limits, convergence, etc. The problem is that most calculus courses were devised before the widespread availability of Wolfram Alpha and focus too much on hand computation rather than understanding of the subject.
- mywittyname 9y ago
  I've found that some universities have a program like this -- replacing the calc, physics and higher-level math with more hands-on classes. At my university, a BA in CS was like this, while a BS maintained the rigorous math requirements. I've also seen programs labeled Information Systems that's similar. Not sure I agree with whole-scale removal of it though. I have to use calculus every once in a while in my job. While I never integrate by hand, I certainly need to know what integrals and derivatives are and how/when they are applied.
  - Clubber 9y ago
    Yes, Information Systems type degrees are close, but at my school they weren't strong on programming, instead required Accounting I+II, Finance, Marketing, Management, Business Ethics and that sort of thing. My wife got her CIS degree a few years ago and they seem to have improved a bit. She had multiple programming courses in several languages along with more advanced CS courses and database courses.
alonmower 9y ago
Calling Informatica a startup is a bit of a stretch given that they've been around for 25 years, were public for a long time, make ~1 billion in revenue a year, and have thousands of employees (though I don't doubt that CWIs use of the word predates the company's founding)

chuckdries 9y ago

ASU has a degree called 'informatics' that's run by the computer science faculty but focused more on <the application of technology to other things> rather than <the technology and creation of technology itself.> I just transferred into it from computer science, because I spend all my free time making games anyway, and the informatics program lets me take an elective track to get credit for that. I do think CS is probably a better fit for what I see as my long term plan, but I think this program has a lot of potential for people who wouldn't otherwise call themselves engineers.

currymj 9y ago

in some other languages it's basically called that. "Informatik" in German. there's still the vestigial title in some department names in the US, "Department of Computer Science and Informatics". I agree it would be a better name but I think the battle is lost, informatics now refers to an applied discipline (closely related to library science) involving building up big systems to store and organize data.

zerkten 9y ago

I think you are trying to make some good points, but your language could have been clearer. If I'm understanding correctly you mean: 1. Treat Computer Science (CS) as a specific field, and don't dilute the curriculum with related items. 2. Introduce a course that covers these broader, non-CS items, and actually push it out beyond the audience of CS? Did I get that right? I think you might have meant the term "informatics" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informatics). Depending on your position CS is either subordinate, equal, or above informatics. I have a degree from a UK university and there is a much wider spectrum degree types in this field than exist here in the US where I now live. I'm conflicted on the original post that elicited your response. I have that background where I inherited a broken PC, a bunch of floppy disks, and some manuals. In some ways this gives me an advantage, especially given that I'm comfortable being dropped into a messy project or some problem that is debugged. I've seen lots of folks who can't handle this, but can churn out code on to need more support around the edges. I now see more and more folks attempting things like devops and at least being able to learn some of these skills later on. I think where it stands me in better stead is problem avoidance, but even that is subjective.

mattmanser 9y ago
Better to stop trying to create programmers by teaching them a theoretical discipline like CS and to teach them software engineering instead?
- eropple 9y ago
  Frankly, I think we would need to know what software engineering looks like, outside of the spaces where engineers (like, ones with PEs) more than developers own the project, before we start teaching it to novices. I mean, I've been getting paid for this for going on fifteen years now and I'm not an engineer. I try to build resilient, reliable systems, I try to test heavily and comprehensively...but I'm not an engineer, and most of the time I'm worried when somebody calls themselves one. What "software engineering" is, in the context of a web app or a point of sale system, rather hard to define. Worth taking a crack at. But we shouldn't put the cart before the horse.

Clubber 9y ago

When I went to college, CS required 3 semesters of Calc and 3 semesters of Physics. It's almost as if CS was trying to fill in some hours. Calc and Physics are great and all, but very narrowly applicable. The only benefit is how it works your brain (and a good weed out course). I would ditch that and concentrate only on computer related issues. Database would be a big one that is usually missing. Networking as well. Computer architecture (like building a computer and the Von-Neumann model) should also be included. Basic project management would be helpful too. That's 4-6 courses you could suppliant with Physics 1-3 and Calc 1-3. It just seems silly to force CS kids to learn Physics and Calc when it is seldom used in the real world. I would much rather have a grad know the ins and outs of networking and how a computer actually works than Calc and Physics.

namelost 9y ago
Asymptotic notation is defined using limits. In fact a lot of concepts in CS involve limits, convergence, etc. The problem is that most calculus courses were devised before the widespread availability of Wolfram Alpha and focus too much on hand computation rather than understanding of the subject.
mywittyname 9y ago
I've found that some universities have a program like this -- replacing the calc, physics and higher-level math with more hands-on classes. At my university, a BA in CS was like this, while a BS maintained the rigorous math requirements. I've also seen programs labeled Information Systems that's similar. Not sure I agree with whole-scale removal of it though. I have to use calculus every once in a while in my job. While I never integrate by hand, I certainly need to know what integrals and derivatives are and how/when they are applied.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Yes, Information Systems type degrees are close, but at my school they weren't strong on programming, instead required Accounting I+II, Finance, Marketing, Management, Business Ethics and that sort of thing. My wife got her CIS degree a few years ago and they seem to have improved a bit. She had multiple programming courses in several languages along with more advanced CS courses and database courses.

alonmower 9y ago

Calling Informatica a startup is a bit of a stretch given that they've been around for 25 years, were public for a long time, make ~1 billion in revenue a year, and have thousands of employees (though I don't doubt that CWIs use of the word predates the company's founding)