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> At the same time, some Russian activities seem to have risen to the level of espionage There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has bee

by smsm42 9y ago

> At the same time, some Russian activities seem to have risen to the level of espionage There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Alger Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. > The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. So? US and US-related organizations funded and organized political and quasi-political activities in many countries. So do many other countries - EU finances a wide variety of NGOs that do all kinds of political campaigns, so does the US. All this fainting about "oh, Russians dare to have opinion about US politics and tell us about it using Facebook! Oh horrors! Our democracy is dead!" just sounds bizarre. Yeah, we live in a global world, Russians can have opinion about US politics, and Americans can have opinion about Russian politics, and both can publish real opinions or any crap they like on Facebook. Making a conspiracy of the century out of it is insane.

mcphage 9y ago
> There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Albert Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. Right, so I’m not sure why you’re suggesting we should just sit here and do nothing about it.
- smsm42 9y ago
  No, I am suggesting to do something about "it" - provided the "it" isn't a bunch of Facebook ads but a real espionage. So far it seems like real hacks and stolen data leads to nothing but people that post on Facebook get indicted. Which is also largely posturing because there's no way to prosecute them.
philwelch 9y ago
There has always been Russian espionage, and Russian spies have always been investigated and, when caught, prosecuted. (See: Alger Hiss, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs). What's concerning is when the President of the United States himself seems to be speaking and acting out against his own government's counterintelligence investigations and in favor of his own country's geopolitical adversaries.
- smsm42 9y ago
  When government counterintelligence investigations, instead of catching real spies and protecting real sensitive systems (which, judging by recent hacks of government data, are in extremely sorry state of affairs) waste time, money and effort to pursue idiotic "collusion" story, buy insane "dossiers" most likely assembled by geopolitical adversaries to try and troll the opposite side into doing self harm, and play political partisan games - I think it's time to speak up about it. And if it takes Trump to speak up about it - well, so be it. It'd be nicer if more people spoke up more strongly about this sad state of affairs - because the Russian espionage and Russian threat exists, but the political games now make mockery of it and try to turn Russia into partisan issue that excludes any rational discussion and any counteraction that is not rooted into tactical partisan gamesmanship - but if Trump is what we've got than it'd be Trump.
  - marshray 9y ago
    > idiotic "collusion" story Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. A few days later, Trump Sr. delivered his famous "Russia if you're listening ... [deliver what was discussed in that meeting] ... you'll be rewarded" line.
    - philwelch 9y ago
      Not to mention that Trump had to fire one of his campaign managers for receiving illegal payments while working for the campaign of Russian-aligned Ukrainian president Yanukovych.
    - 9y ago
soundwave106 9y ago
The "so?" is in the indictment. To quote the opening paragraph: US law bans foreign nationals from making certain expenditures or financial disbursements for the purpose of influencing federal elections. US law also bars agents of any foreign entity from engaging in political activities within the United States without first registering with the Attorney General. And US law requires certain foreign nationals seeking entry to the United States to obtain a visa by providing truthful and accurate information to the government. Legally, Russians can have an opinion about American politics. But they can't pay for ads and rallies and other political oriented activity. Obviously there's realpolitik regarding these type of laws, and obviously the US has been the most perfect actor in the past either. In the real world, everyone does a little propaganda, as you say. But in the real world as well, sometimes the propaganda is "pushed too far" for a government's liking. It is pretty clear that Russia's propaganda "pushed too far" for the US government's liking. So, the US government has responded. All in a day of geopolitics, I suppose. But calling it "oh, Russians dare to have an opinion!" is glossing it over. Most countries don't like it when foreign nationals mess a bit with their political internals. It seems like some of the comments here are bordering on "how dare the US intelligence agencies have an opinion on the Russian interference!", which seems naive to me.

by smsm42 9y ago

mcphage 9y ago

> There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Albert Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. Right, so I’m not sure why you’re suggesting we should just sit here and do nothing about it.

smsm42 9y ago
No, I am suggesting to do something about "it" - provided the "it" isn't a bunch of Facebook ads but a real espionage. So far it seems like real hacks and stolen data leads to nothing but people that post on Facebook get indicted. Which is also largely posturing because there's no way to prosecute them.

philwelch 9y ago

There has always been Russian espionage, and Russian spies have always been investigated and, when caught, prosecuted. (See: Alger Hiss, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs). What's concerning is when the President of the United States himself seems to be speaking and acting out against his own government's counterintelligence investigations and in favor of his own country's geopolitical adversaries.

smsm42 9y ago
When government counterintelligence investigations, instead of catching real spies and protecting real sensitive systems (which, judging by recent hacks of government data, are in extremely sorry state of affairs) waste time, money and effort to pursue idiotic "collusion" story, buy insane "dossiers" most likely assembled by geopolitical adversaries to try and troll the opposite side into doing self harm, and play political partisan games - I think it's time to speak up about it. And if it takes Trump to speak up about it - well, so be it. It'd be nicer if more people spoke up more strongly about this sad state of affairs - because the Russian espionage and Russian threat exists, but the political games now make mockery of it and try to turn Russia into partisan issue that excludes any rational discussion and any counteraction that is not rooted into tactical partisan gamesmanship - but if Trump is what we've got than it'd be Trump.
- marshray 9y ago
  > idiotic "collusion" story Reality: Don Trump Jr. met with Russian agents in Trump Tower to negotiate receiving hacking assistance. A few days later, Trump Sr. delivered his famous "Russia if you're listening ... [deliver what was discussed in that meeting] ... you'll be rewarded" line.
  - philwelch 9y ago
    Not to mention that Trump had to fire one of his campaign managers for receiving illegal payments while working for the campaign of Russian-aligned Ukrainian president Yanukovych.
  - 9y ago

soundwave106 9y ago

The "so?" is in the indictment. To quote the opening paragraph: US law bans foreign nationals from making certain expenditures or financial disbursements for the purpose of influencing federal elections. US law also bars agents of any foreign entity from engaging in political activities within the United States without first registering with the Attorney General. And US law requires certain foreign nationals seeking entry to the United States to obtain a visa by providing truthful and accurate information to the government. Legally, Russians can have an opinion about American politics. But they can't pay for ads and rallies and other political oriented activity. Obviously there's realpolitik regarding these type of laws, and obviously the US has been the most perfect actor in the past either. In the real world, everyone does a little propaganda, as you say. But in the real world as well, sometimes the propaganda is "pushed too far" for a government's liking. It is pretty clear that Russia's propaganda "pushed too far" for the US government's liking. So, the US government has responded. All in a day of geopolitics, I suppose. But calling it "oh, Russians dare to have an opinion!" is glossing it over. Most countries don't like it when foreign nationals mess a bit with their political internals. It seems like some of the comments here are bordering on "how dare the US intelligence agencies have an opinion on the Russian interference!", which seems naive to me.