6 ms·

I agree with you generally...the uproar over twitter bots and fake news stories has struck me as a little silly. At the same time, some Russian activities seem

by trgv 9y ago

I agree with you generally...the uproar over twitter bots and fake news stories has struck me as a little silly. At the same time, some Russian activities seem to have risen to the level of espionage. According to the article, Russian agents traveled around the US, posing as Americans, gathering information. The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. Making a big deal over that stuff is hypocritical given US actions abroad over the past hundred years, but that's a separate issue. Maybe the US shouldn't be interfering in the elections of other countries, but every country probably has rules like these: https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/ https://www.fec.gov/updates/foreign-nationals/ and every country seeks to minimize foreign influence on internal politics.

pdx 9y ago
> The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. I remember the one after the election in NYC that was supposedly set up by BLM against Trump, but turned out to be organized by Russians on Facebook
- toxican 9y ago
  Which only goes to show that nobody is "safe". Their goal is to sow chaos and there's no better way to do that than to play both sides at every opportunity.
smsm42 9y ago
> At the same time, some Russian activities seem to have risen to the level of espionage There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Alger Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. > The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. So? US and US-related organizations funded and organized political and quasi-political activities in many countries. So do many other countries - EU finances a wide variety of NGOs that do all kinds of political campaigns, so does the US. All this fainting about "oh, Russians dare to have opinion about US politics and tell us about it using Facebook! Oh horrors! Our democracy is dead!" just sounds bizarre. Yeah, we live in a global world, Russians can have opinion about US politics, and Americans can have opinion about Russian politics, and both can publish real opinions or any crap they like on Facebook. Making a conspiracy of the century out of it is insane.
- mcphage 9y ago
  > There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Albert Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. Right, so I’m not sure why you’re suggesting we should just sit here and do nothing about it.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    No, I am suggesting to do something about "it" - provided the "it" isn't a bunch of Facebook ads but a real espionage. So far it seems like real hacks and stolen data leads to nothing but people that post on Facebook get indicted. Which is also largely posturing because there's no way to prosecute them.
- philwelch 9y ago
  There has always been Russian espionage, and Russian spies have always been investigated and, when caught, prosecuted. (See: Alger Hiss, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs). What's concerning is when the President of the United States himself seems to be speaking and acting out against his own government's counterintelligence investigations and in favor of his own country's geopolitical adversaries.
  - smsm42 9y ago
    When government counterintelligence investigations, instead of catching real spies and protecting real sensitive systems (which, judging by recent hacks of government data, are in extremely sorry state of affairs) waste time, money and effort to pursue idiotic "collusion" story, buy insane "dossiers" most likely assembled by geopolitical adversaries to try and troll the opposite side into doing self harm, and play political partisan games - I think it's time to speak up about it. And if it takes Trump to speak up about it - well, so be it. It'd be nicer if more people spoke up more strongly about this sad state of affairs - because the Russian espionage and Russian threat exists, but the political games now make mockery of it and try to turn Russia into partisan issue that excludes any rational discussion and any counteraction that is not rooted into tactical partisan gamesmanship - but if Trump is what we've got than it'd be Trump.
StanislavPetrov 9y ago
>Making a big deal over that stuff is hypocritical given US actions abroad over the past hundred years, but that's a separate issue. How is it a "separate issue"? It seems to me the entirety of the issue. If you park in front of my house every day for a hundred years and block my driveway, you have forfeited the right to cry foul when I park in front of your house and block your driveway. By your actions (which are far, far more important than hollow rhetoric) you have declared that this behavior is completely legitimate. Your habitual and repeated engagement in the proscribed behavior has precluded you from credibly complaining about said behavior. Those who can't wrap their minds around the concept of moral authority and reciprocation simply cry, "whataboutism". Spreading foreign propaganda and influencing foreign elections (both kinetically via invasions and subversively via NGOs, funding and other methods) is not only "something we do" - its been the main thrust of our foreign policy for over a century. This is especially important in this case, because not only is this true as a general principle, but specifically as regards Russia. Our interference with Russian elections (actual interference, not a few twitter posts) is substantial and has been well-documented. >Last winter Yeltsin's approval ratings were in the single digits. There are many reasons for his change in fortune, but a crucial one has remained a secret. For four months, a group of American political consultants clandestinely participated in guiding Yeltsin's campaign. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136204,00.html http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136204,...
yogthos 9y ago
Dude, let me tell you about US pretty much openly running Russian elections in the 90s.
- wholinator2 9y ago
  Please do
  - yogthos 9y ago
    do read on https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/05/americans-spot-election-meddling-doing-years-vladimir-putin-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/05/americ... I grew up in Russia in the 90s, and I witnessed the effects of US interference first hand. People literally starved to death in Russia after US gutted it. Meanwhile, US continues to fuck over countries all over the world and having a good laugh about it on TV https://twitter.com/dcentralized/status/964900521793466374 https://twitter.com/dcentralized/status/964900521793466374
    - dragonwriter 9y ago
      > People literally starved to death in Russia after US gutted it. No, they starved after the Soviet Union destroyed the economy by choosing to engage in a geopolitical competition—in large extent, a military spending competition—with the far more developed West, with predictable effects on the economy (and eventually the regime, but getting rid of that doesn't magically undo the damage.) Any US election interference afterward is pretty much irrelevant to the outcome you describe, though it's a convenient way for, say, people who had been neck deep in the old regime to point the blame elsewhere (which itself is a good reason not to have done it, but no one ever adequately considers blowback when they do stuff like this.)

by trgv 9y ago

pdx 9y ago

> The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. I remember the one after the election in NYC that was supposedly set up by BLM against Trump, but turned out to be organized by Russians on Facebook

toxican 9y ago
Which only goes to show that nobody is "safe". Their goal is to sow chaos and there's no better way to do that than to play both sides at every opportunity.

smsm42 9y ago

> At the same time, some Russian activities seem to have risen to the level of espionage There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Alger Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. > The article also says that Russian agents organized and funded political rallies. So? US and US-related organizations funded and organized political and quasi-political activities in many countries. So do many other countries - EU finances a wide variety of NGOs that do all kinds of political campaigns, so does the US. All this fainting about "oh, Russians dare to have opinion about US politics and tell us about it using Facebook! Oh horrors! Our democracy is dead!" just sounds bizarre. Yeah, we live in a global world, Russians can have opinion about US politics, and Americans can have opinion about Russian politics, and both can publish real opinions or any crap they like on Facebook. Making a conspiracy of the century out of it is insane.

mcphage 9y ago
> There has always been Russian espionage. Not only that - there has been Russian (or Soviet, same difference) agents in Manhattan project, high positions in State Department (see Albert Hiss) and so on. Recent kerfuffle has nothing on that. Russia sees itself as a geopolitical foe of the US, of course they are spying on the US. In fact, US spied on Germany, Britain and Israel (and Israel spied back on US as we know, others probably too but were not caught) - and those are close allies! Of course Russians would do the same. It's not something new that "have risen" recently. Right, so I’m not sure why you’re suggesting we should just sit here and do nothing about it.
- smsm42 9y ago
  No, I am suggesting to do something about "it" - provided the "it" isn't a bunch of Facebook ads but a real espionage. So far it seems like real hacks and stolen data leads to nothing but people that post on Facebook get indicted. Which is also largely posturing because there's no way to prosecute them.
philwelch 9y ago
There has always been Russian espionage, and Russian spies have always been investigated and, when caught, prosecuted. (See: Alger Hiss, Klaus Fuchs, the Rosenbergs). What's concerning is when the President of the United States himself seems to be speaking and acting out against his own government's counterintelligence investigations and in favor of his own country's geopolitical adversaries.
- smsm42 9y ago
  When government counterintelligence investigations, instead of catching real spies and protecting real sensitive systems (which, judging by recent hacks of government data, are in extremely sorry state of affairs) waste time, money and effort to pursue idiotic "collusion" story, buy insane "dossiers" most likely assembled by geopolitical adversaries to try and troll the opposite side into doing self harm, and play political partisan games - I think it's time to speak up about it. And if it takes Trump to speak up about it - well, so be it. It'd be nicer if more people spoke up more strongly about this sad state of affairs - because the Russian espionage and Russian threat exists, but the political games now make mockery of it and try to turn Russia into partisan issue that excludes any rational discussion and any counteraction that is not rooted into tactical partisan gamesmanship - but if Trump is what we've got than it'd be Trump.

StanislavPetrov 9y ago

>Making a big deal over that stuff is hypocritical given US actions abroad over the past hundred years, but that's a separate issue. How is it a "separate issue"? It seems to me the entirety of the issue. If you park in front of my house every day for a hundred years and block my driveway, you have forfeited the right to cry foul when I park in front of your house and block your driveway. By your actions (which are far, far more important than hollow rhetoric) you have declared that this behavior is completely legitimate. Your habitual and repeated engagement in the proscribed behavior has precluded you from credibly complaining about said behavior. Those who can't wrap their minds around the concept of moral authority and reciprocation simply cry, "whataboutism". Spreading foreign propaganda and influencing foreign elections (both kinetically via invasions and subversively via NGOs, funding and other methods) is not only "something we do" - its been the main thrust of our foreign policy for over a century. This is especially important in this case, because not only is this true as a general principle, but specifically as regards Russia. Our interference with Russian elections (actual interference, not a few twitter posts) is substantial and has been well-documented. >Last winter Yeltsin's approval ratings were in the single digits. There are many reasons for his change in fortune, but a crucial one has remained a secret. For four months, a group of American political consultants clandestinely participated in guiding Yeltsin's campaign. http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136204,00.html http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,136204,...

yogthos 9y ago

Dude, let me tell you about US pretty much openly running Russian elections in the 90s.

wholinator2 9y ago
Please do
- yogthos 9y ago
  do read on https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/05/americans-spot-election-meddling-doing-years-vladimir-putin-donald-trump https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/05/americ... I grew up in Russia in the 90s, and I witnessed the effects of US interference first hand. People literally starved to death in Russia after US gutted it. Meanwhile, US continues to fuck over countries all over the world and having a good laugh about it on TV https://twitter.com/dcentralized/status/964900521793466374 https://twitter.com/dcentralized/status/964900521793466374
  - dragonwriter 9y ago
    > People literally starved to death in Russia after US gutted it. No, they starved after the Soviet Union destroyed the economy by choosing to engage in a geopolitical competition—in large extent, a military spending competition—with the far more developed West, with predictable effects on the economy (and eventually the regime, but getting rid of that doesn't magically undo the damage.) Any US election interference afterward is pretty much irrelevant to the outcome you describe, though it's a convenient way for, say, people who had been neck deep in the old regime to point the blame elsewhere (which itself is a good reason not to have done it, but no one ever adequately considers blowback when they do stuff like this.)