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I was as amazed as Jakob[1] how much the overwhelming HN response to this story is self-serving defensiveness and rationalization, and very little acknowledgeme

I was as amazed as Jakob[1] how much the overwhelming HN response to this story is self-serving defensiveness and rationalization, and very little acknowledgement. But I took solace in the fact that his comment was voted to the top. When I came back 20 minutes later it had dropped to #3. Three hours later it is #4, with the top-two trivializing this as just trolls not misogyny, and the third in support of women but in a way that doesn't offend the HN community's collective ego. The #1 comment, the one I'm replying to, expresses the belief that what someone does anonymously does not reflect their character or their underlying attitudes towards women. It's just an "asshat" "short anonymous interaction". Boys will be boys. This isn't real. Don't read too much into it! Women, a bit too sensitive are we? I looked through the 101 sub-comments to #1, and nearly all trivialize this as issues of "anonymity", "kids", "jokes", "gaming" "trash talk". One even said "It's worth noting that all of this behavior is normal and healthy." He (I think I can safely assume he is a he) also added "Additionally, this is a part of establishing or figuring out your position in the social dominance hierarchy." Yes. Male social dominance. I did find four sub-replies (out of the 101) that focused on what this meant for women[2]. > Most would probably never say any of this to someones' face, not out of fear of consequences but simply because they know better. Yet in anonymous contact they don't think twice about it. What you do when you don't think twice is a reflection of some truth about you (your character, your biases, your raw attitudes, your inner values, your insecurities and inadequacies) or about the culture you are a part of. It's usually both. The comments Julia received are not random insults. They are misogynist. Misogyny doesn't appear out of thin air. > It might help to explain that everthing typed anywhere* online is usually recorded forever, and that true anonymity doesn't exist either.* It might be more helpful to explain that it is deeply oppressive, injurious and misogynist. As with police killings of black men, it is important that all this is recorded forever. Because without records, the oppressed are never believed by those in the same class as the oppressors. But as HN is proving right now, they are still not believed. Many comments claim that Julia's experience is the result of some small number of trolls, not reflective of the vast majority of men, or of male tech culture. The volume of HN comments coming to the defense of men rather than women doesn't do much to bolster the "just trolls" theory. The comments here are a reflection of HN readership, and it is a good thing that this and all the other overwhelmingly dismissive comments on many other similar posts are recorded forever. They are the perfect example of what women have to live with. Trivialization. Dismissal. Ridicule. Sexism. Misogyny. - [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16390796 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16390796 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16394063 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16394063 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16394187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16394187 , https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16393947 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16393947 (down-voted to gray) and https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16392373 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16392373

alkonaut 9y ago
Man having a comment upvoted and scrutinized really makes me wish I had written a more thought out post. Sometimes you write something in 2 minutes, in a language that isn't your first language, and only later come back to realize it was voted up and now had an expectation of actually being insightful. > expresses the belief that what someone does anonymously does not reflect their character or their underlying attitudes towards women. It's just an "asshat" "short anonymous interaction". Boys will be boys. This isn't real. Don't read too much into it! Women, a bit too sensitive are we? That's not at all what I was trying to say! I genuinely do believe that the attitudes expressed are genuine. My point was that the anonymity is what lets these guys get over the treshold of expressing them (so why anonymous chats seem more full of misogynist assholes than elsewhere). And I do believe their attitudes towards women is so bad that they don't even understand how bad it is. And that's a sad reflection on society. I didn't mean to express that as a "boys will be boys"-excuse on their part. > What you do when you don't think twice is a reflection of some truth about you (your character, your biases, your raw attitudes, your inner values, your insecurities and inadequacies) or about the culture you are a part of. It's usually both. The comments Julia received are not random insults. They are misogynist. Misogyny doesn't appear out of thin air. Yes. This is much closer to the point I'm trying to make. This should be the top comment. Were were you earlier? (I have not missed the irony of my parent post being written quickly and anonymously and obviously without afterthought, so it must reflect my character and biases then...) > Many comments claim that Julia's experience is the result of some small number of trolls, not reflective of the vast majority of men, or of male tech culture. Whether these interactions were in fact a small number of people I think wasn't clear from the article but I'm willing to bet that statistically it would look the same if repeated. You could make all kinds of statistics (like were the bad guys more willing to interact at all, etc) but I don't think it makes a difference to the point of the article. I think there are huge problems with male/tech culture. I'm going to argue that the vast majority of men would never behave like this regardless of what beliefs we hold. But the fact that even a few behave like this is of course a problem that not only lies with a few. All of us create a culture which in turn creates these assholes. So even if we think we aren't assholes ourselves, we more than likely are part of making a culture of assholes.
- 9y ago

alkonaut 9y ago

Man having a comment upvoted and scrutinized really makes me wish I had written a more thought out post. Sometimes you write something in 2 minutes, in a language that isn't your first language, and only later come back to realize it was voted up and now had an expectation of actually being insightful. > expresses the belief that what someone does anonymously does not reflect their character or their underlying attitudes towards women. It's just an "asshat" "short anonymous interaction". Boys will be boys. This isn't real. Don't read too much into it! Women, a bit too sensitive are we? That's not at all what I was trying to say! I genuinely do believe that the attitudes expressed are genuine. My point was that the anonymity is what lets these guys get over the treshold of expressing them (so why anonymous chats seem more full of misogynist assholes than elsewhere). And I do believe their attitudes towards women is so bad that they don't even understand how bad it is. And that's a sad reflection on society. I didn't mean to express that as a "boys will be boys"-excuse on their part. > What you do when you don't think twice is a reflection of some truth about you (your character, your biases, your raw attitudes, your inner values, your insecurities and inadequacies) or about the culture you are a part of. It's usually both. The comments Julia received are not random insults. They are misogynist. Misogyny doesn't appear out of thin air. Yes. This is much closer to the point I'm trying to make. This should be the top comment. Were were you earlier? (I have not missed the irony of my parent post being written quickly and anonymously and obviously without afterthought, so it must reflect my character and biases then...) > Many comments claim that Julia's experience is the result of some small number of trolls, not reflective of the vast majority of men, or of male tech culture. Whether these interactions were in fact a small number of people I think wasn't clear from the article but I'm willing to bet that statistically it would look the same if repeated. You could make all kinds of statistics (like were the bad guys more willing to interact at all, etc) but I don't think it makes a difference to the point of the article. I think there are huge problems with male/tech culture. I'm going to argue that the vast majority of men would never behave like this regardless of what beliefs we hold. But the fact that even a few behave like this is of course a problem that not only lies with a few. All of us create a culture which in turn creates these assholes. So even if we think we aren't assholes ourselves, we more than likely are part of making a culture of assholes.

9y ago