5 ms·

If Facebook tracks me outside of Facebook's website because that other website has tracking code or a like button (which I didn't click) and I don't have an acc

by klez 9y ago

If Facebook tracks me outside of Facebook's website because that other website has tracking code or a like button (which I didn't click) and I don't have an account on Facebook, I'm not ok with that. I think that's what GP is referring to.

cromwellian 9y ago
Aren’t the Like buttons distributed around the Web and used on purpose by publishers? If your reading the New York Times, there’s a like button on the story, if you click it, aren’t you explicitly telling Facebook your interested? Perhaps you object to the page impression being tracked even if you don’t like it? This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes.
- detaro 9y ago
  > This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes. Yes, that's the consequence (well, it does't really have to be an API triggered from the server, it can send the user there). Or a pattern where a user has to click a locally hosted link/button which then loads the Facebook one, and/or records permission to load it with further page visits. It's not really that much difference from an integration perspective if you include code in your page that loads a facebook iframe, or code that only does that after user interaction.
- emiliobumachar 9y ago
  As far as I know, Like buttons are partially served by Facebook, which then knows I've accessed the site (the NYT in your example). This happens even if I do not click the button, do not hover over it, and do not have a Facebook account.
  - merreborn 9y ago
    > Like buttons are partially served by Facebook Yes, the default configuration has your page include javascript from facebook.net which the browser will request on every page view https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/like-button https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/like-button In the case of this the theguardian.com page it looks like they've got a webbug as the last element of the body, which results in a request to https://www.facebook.com/tr https://www.facebook.com/tr? Having facebook count views of your like button is probably considered a feature to publishers.
- mtgx 9y ago
  Facebook was tracking users even if they didn't click the Like button. This has nothing to do with page view tracking. And they were tracking even non-Facebook users this way. There's zero consent here no matter how you cut it. Worse yet, Facebook did this for years, and in the first years it swore it doesn't do that, and when they were caught doing it they said it was "just a bug"...twice. Facebook has 0% credibility at this point. Just look how they're ruining people's trust in 2FA security, too, now (although if they end-up ruining the trust in SMS 2FA, that wouldn't be too bad of an outcome actually...). This is a good article (although not complete, and only until 2014) on Facebook's awful, no-good, history of lying and tracking users without their consent: https://www.propublica.org/article/its-complicated-facebooks-history-of-tracking-you https://www.propublica.org/article/its-complicated-facebooks...
  - netgusto 9y ago
    2FA notif scam was the last straw for me. Just deleted my account. So long and thanks for all the fish!
  - wtfstatists 9y ago
    There's zero consent here no matter how you cut it. Thats not true. You implicity consent to usage policy of that website which then gave permission to FB. Ofcourse GDPR makes it illegel but until May 25 its not.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      Is it possible to even view the usage policy on one of these sites without hitting a page that loads one of these like buttons first?
- hueving 9y ago
  Loading the like button is enough for facebook to track you and infer your interests. You never have to click it.
- xg15 9y ago
  > This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes. If Facebook means no harm, they could make this the encouraged way to include the like button.
pbalau 9y ago
Why not blame the other website that added the fb button on their page?
- klez 9y ago
  I blame both. I never said I only blame Facebook.
ashooner 9y ago
I'm not crazy about the current state of internet privacy, but I think it's a missed opportunity if we don't teach the general public just how much control they have over it. Most tracking being done can be prevented by a few modifications to web browser configuration. At the end of the day, we are sending Facebook our ID to be tracked. This is avoidable for a user with some knowledge and agency.
- paublyrne 9y ago
  I don't think the answer is to put the onus on users to be tech savvy. We should be structurally preventing the behaviour.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    Why not both? We can remind people that the internet is still a dangerous place, while also trying to discourage bad behaviour
  - ashooner 9y ago
    By structural, you mean regulatory. I agree that data stewardship should be much better-regulated than it is now. But right now I can install any number of tools on Google's own browser that mitigate most common tracking/privacy concerns. I don't necessarily agree that we need to increase government regulation to address a concern that a Chrome extension is already serving.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  While that should be taught, it should also be taught to companies that they should respect people's right to privacy.
- Barrin92 9y ago
  the answer to privacy violations cannot just be technological solutions on the consumer end. It's like having people break into your house every week and someone tells you to buy a good pair of boxing gloves. This warrants a political solution and I'm glad that the EU is moving into the right direction.
wtfstatists 9y ago
If Facebook tracks me outside of Facebook's website because that other website has tracking code or a like button (which I didn't click) and I don't have an account on Facebook, I'm not ok with that. Then your beef is not with FB but the website which _chose_ to embed FB like button. You should stop using that website if you are not ok.
- monocasa 9y ago
  Yeah, that's like 40% of the internet, including almost all news. The argument "just don't participate in society if you don't want people tracking every news report you read" doesn't really sit well with me.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    Well these are the terms of using the site. You are not entitled to anything.
    - monocasa 9y ago
      Can you practically view those terms without loading one of these buttons beforehand?
      - TomMarius 9y ago
        That's an issue, I agree.
      - ttoinou 9y ago
        I think you can already block thoses connections, so yes
        monocasa 9y ago
        What if blocking is against the terms of service?

by klez 9y ago

cromwellian 9y ago

Aren’t the Like buttons distributed around the Web and used on purpose by publishers? If your reading the New York Times, there’s a like button on the story, if you click it, aren’t you explicitly telling Facebook your interested? Perhaps you object to the page impression being tracked even if you don’t like it? This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes.

detaro 9y ago
> This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes. Yes, that's the consequence (well, it does't really have to be an API triggered from the server, it can send the user there). Or a pattern where a user has to click a locally hosted link/button which then loads the Facebook one, and/or records permission to load it with further page visits. It's not really that much difference from an integration perspective if you include code in your page that loads a facebook iframe, or code that only does that after user interaction.
emiliobumachar 9y ago
As far as I know, Like buttons are partially served by Facebook, which then knows I've accessed the site (the NYT in your example). This happens even if I do not click the button, do not hover over it, and do not have a Facebook account.
- merreborn 9y ago
  > Like buttons are partially served by Facebook Yes, the default configuration has your page include javascript from facebook.net which the browser will request on every page view https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/like-button https://developers.facebook.com/docs/plugins/like-button In the case of this the theguardian.com page it looks like they've got a webbug as the last element of the body, which results in a request to https://www.facebook.com/tr https://www.facebook.com/tr? Having facebook count views of your like button is probably considered a feature to publishers.
mtgx 9y ago
Facebook was tracking users even if they didn't click the Like button. This has nothing to do with page view tracking. And they were tracking even non-Facebook users this way. There's zero consent here no matter how you cut it. Worse yet, Facebook did this for years, and in the first years it swore it doesn't do that, and when they were caught doing it they said it was "just a bug"...twice. Facebook has 0% credibility at this point. Just look how they're ruining people's trust in 2FA security, too, now (although if they end-up ruining the trust in SMS 2FA, that wouldn't be too bad of an outcome actually...). This is a good article (although not complete, and only until 2014) on Facebook's awful, no-good, history of lying and tracking users without their consent: https://www.propublica.org/article/its-complicated-facebooks-history-of-tracking-you https://www.propublica.org/article/its-complicated-facebooks...
- netgusto 9y ago
  2FA notif scam was the last straw for me. Just deleted my account. So long and thanks for all the fish!
- wtfstatists 9y ago
  There's zero consent here no matter how you cut it. Thats not true. You implicity consent to usage policy of that website which then gave permission to FB. Ofcourse GDPR makes it illegel but until May 25 its not.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    Is it possible to even view the usage policy on one of these sites without hitting a page that loads one of these like buttons first?
hueving 9y ago
Loading the like button is enough for facebook to track you and infer your interests. You never have to click it.
xg15 9y ago
> This seems unavoidable unless you mandate publishers host their own copy of the code behind these buttons and use a public API only to record the likes. If Facebook means no harm, they could make this the encouraged way to include the like button.

pbalau 9y ago

Why not blame the other website that added the fb button on their page?

klez 9y ago
I blame both. I never said I only blame Facebook.

ashooner 9y ago

I'm not crazy about the current state of internet privacy, but I think it's a missed opportunity if we don't teach the general public just how much control they have over it. Most tracking being done can be prevented by a few modifications to web browser configuration. At the end of the day, we are sending Facebook our ID to be tracked. This is avoidable for a user with some knowledge and agency.

paublyrne 9y ago
I don't think the answer is to put the onus on users to be tech savvy. We should be structurally preventing the behaviour.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  Why not both? We can remind people that the internet is still a dangerous place, while also trying to discourage bad behaviour
- ashooner 9y ago
  By structural, you mean regulatory. I agree that data stewardship should be much better-regulated than it is now. But right now I can install any number of tools on Google's own browser that mitigate most common tracking/privacy concerns. I don't necessarily agree that we need to increase government regulation to address a concern that a Chrome extension is already serving.
s73v3r_ 9y ago
While that should be taught, it should also be taught to companies that they should respect people's right to privacy.
Barrin92 9y ago
the answer to privacy violations cannot just be technological solutions on the consumer end. It's like having people break into your house every week and someone tells you to buy a good pair of boxing gloves. This warrants a political solution and I'm glad that the EU is moving into the right direction.

wtfstatists 9y ago

monocasa 9y ago
Yeah, that's like 40% of the internet, including almost all news. The argument "just don't participate in society if you don't want people tracking every news report you read" doesn't really sit well with me.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Well these are the terms of using the site. You are not entitled to anything.
  - monocasa 9y ago
    Can you practically view those terms without loading one of these buttons beforehand?
    - TomMarius 9y ago
      That's an issue, I agree.
    - ttoinou 9y ago
      I think you can already block thoses connections, so yes
      - monocasa 9y ago
        What if blocking is against the terms of service?