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Ok, but do you think those 12 year olds are going to all grow up to be well behaving adults? Or maybe the problems with this kind of sexism are starting very y

Ok, but do you think those 12 year olds are going to all grow up to be well behaving adults? Or maybe the problems with this kind of sexism are starting very young. If you are right then the solutions still need to be addressed, but we need to start earlier.

geezerjay 9y ago
Marginal levels of immature and/or antisocial elements don't mean that society is sexist, no matter how vocal those trolls may be.
- dsr_ 9y ago
  No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. "The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept" - Lt. Gen. David Morrison
  - dlss 9y ago
    > No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. What change in society would count as not tolerating these trolls?
    - notriddle 9y ago
      To start with, commenters on HN could acknowledge that this is actually a problem.
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. Actually that just means society tolerates trolls. You're showing your bias by jumping to the conclusion that everything is sexism or that somehow antisocial and immature people only target women. Furthermore, western society actually holds in high regard concepts such as frer speech, which covers idiots being able to say idiotic things.
    - scott_s 9y ago
      These vocal trolls are being sexist. A society that tolerates sexist trolls tolerates sexism. A society that tolerates sexism is a sexist society.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        A society that tolerates sexist trolls because it values free speech is not being sexist, it's being pro-free-speech.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        It is being sexist, and it's being rather absurdist with it's definition of "free speech".
TomMarius 9y ago
Do you remember how sexist were the 70's and the 80's? People who were 12 back then turned out just fine, considering that we're even discussing this, didn't they?
- ams6110 9y ago
  I was 12 in the 70s, and don't remember any boys talking to girls like this. If they did, they'd probably get a slap in the face, if not by the girl then by the teacher if overheard. One big difference is that there was no access to the sort of degrading pornography that is just freely available today. A 12 year old boy in the 70s might be able to get his hands on a Playboy or maybe even a Hustler but it took some real effort and those magazines were tame compared to the porn today.
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    Sure, but there were sexist ads everywhere including the TV; every pub, car repair shop etc. had at least one erotic calendar hanging in the public and so on. There's way more, please don't try to say that there is more sexism today than there was in the 70's.
- Wehrdo 9y ago
  What makes you think they turned out fine? Considering all the high-profile sexual harassment issues over the past few weeks, I get the feeling that many of them did not "grow out of it".
  - TomMarius 9y ago
    That's a very, very small portion of the population. It's also the part of population known for its crazy parties, abundance of money, drugs and alcohol.
HenryBemis 9y ago
I was thinking just that. Target audience of 12yo boys, who are "parked" by their parents with a tablet, with no control, no supervision, that are left to 'self-educate' in the wild-wild-west of the interwebs, and their responses are quotes and memes, will definitely do that. On the other hand, a 35yo educated person, that just wants to make something silly for ther corporate 'yammer', will definitely NOT insult or waste time in any other manner. Kids will be kids. Uneducated kids will be uneducated kids. And we should all be patient, as.. ahem.. we were kids one time :)
- Qwertious 9y ago
  >will definitely NOT insult or waste time in any other manner I wouldn't take those odds, if I were you. Being 35 is no guarantee of not-being-an-asshole.
notyourday 9y ago
I am going to speculate that it is incredibly unlikely that those 12 year old are going to grow up to be well behaved adults. I'm also going to speculate that the vast majority of those twelve year olds do not telegraph their wickedness to anyone in their life or their social circles - parents, teachers, relatives, etc because for last several decades US adult population has been playing ostrich pretending that the disgusting behavior of junior is only a problem for the juniors of those unwashed masses from the redneck South and cannot possibly ever come from the home of the NPR listening, PBS supporting, women's march going family.
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  > it is incredibly unlikely that those 12 year old are going to grow up to be well behaved adults I'm glad you're very unlikely to work in any kind of K-12 educational setting, given how eagerly you write kids off.
- heartles 9y ago
  While I think the other commenter on this post stated their point unhelpfully rudely, I agree that I think you're writing the child off too quickly. I'd imagine that giving up on a kid at this stage would only make it less likely that they realize how terrible they are being. Even if adults don't know that a kid is being shitty, they can still lead by example towards a happier outcome
DarkWiiPlayer 9y ago
If these are really just edgy 12 year olds, then I don't even see the problem in their behaviour itself as much as the fact that it's not possible to identify them as just edgy kids. It's probably not that they need to find out what they are doing is wrong, they probably even know that already, but that they find out that it doesn't make them cool or special or in any way better, which is what they most likely believe when they do stuff like that. A woman (or man, for that matter) who really gets distressed by being insulted by a 12 year old kid certainly shouldn't be the norm, and I don't believe they are. If every one of those chat messages had a button to "forward this to their parent", they would look completely harmless, but with the anonymity the internet provides, they are just chat messages from what could very well be a 30 year old man, making the dumb prank of an even dumber kid seem like way more than it is. What I think would be interesting is some sort of age statistic, because I expect at least two thirds if not more of these messages to be from people under 15. And since somebody will undoubtedly interpret this message like that, no, I am not saying all online harassment can be dismissed, only the large majority of it.

geezerjay 9y ago

Marginal levels of immature and/or antisocial elements don't mean that society is sexist, no matter how vocal those trolls may be.

dsr_ 9y ago
No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. "The standard you walk past, is the standard you accept" - Lt. Gen. David Morrison
- dlss 9y ago
  > No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. What change in society would count as not tolerating these trolls?
  - notriddle 9y ago
    To start with, commenters on HN could acknowledge that this is actually a problem.
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > No, society tolerating those vocal trolls does mean that society is sexist. Actually that just means society tolerates trolls. You're showing your bias by jumping to the conclusion that everything is sexism or that somehow antisocial and immature people only target women. Furthermore, western society actually holds in high regard concepts such as frer speech, which covers idiots being able to say idiotic things.
  - scott_s 9y ago
    These vocal trolls are being sexist. A society that tolerates sexist trolls tolerates sexism. A society that tolerates sexism is a sexist society.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      A society that tolerates sexist trolls because it values free speech is not being sexist, it's being pro-free-speech.
      - s73v3r_ 9y ago
        It is being sexist, and it's being rather absurdist with it's definition of "free speech".

TomMarius 9y ago

Do you remember how sexist were the 70's and the 80's? People who were 12 back then turned out just fine, considering that we're even discussing this, didn't they?

ams6110 9y ago
I was 12 in the 70s, and don't remember any boys talking to girls like this. If they did, they'd probably get a slap in the face, if not by the girl then by the teacher if overheard. One big difference is that there was no access to the sort of degrading pornography that is just freely available today. A 12 year old boy in the 70s might be able to get his hands on a Playboy or maybe even a Hustler but it took some real effort and those magazines were tame compared to the porn today.
- TomMarius 9y ago
  Sure, but there were sexist ads everywhere including the TV; every pub, car repair shop etc. had at least one erotic calendar hanging in the public and so on. There's way more, please don't try to say that there is more sexism today than there was in the 70's.
Wehrdo 9y ago
What makes you think they turned out fine? Considering all the high-profile sexual harassment issues over the past few weeks, I get the feeling that many of them did not "grow out of it".
- TomMarius 9y ago
  That's a very, very small portion of the population. It's also the part of population known for its crazy parties, abundance of money, drugs and alcohol.

HenryBemis 9y ago

I was thinking just that. Target audience of 12yo boys, who are "parked" by their parents with a tablet, with no control, no supervision, that are left to 'self-educate' in the wild-wild-west of the interwebs, and their responses are quotes and memes, will definitely do that. On the other hand, a 35yo educated person, that just wants to make something silly for ther corporate 'yammer', will definitely NOT insult or waste time in any other manner. Kids will be kids. Uneducated kids will be uneducated kids. And we should all be patient, as.. ahem.. we were kids one time :)

Qwertious 9y ago
>will definitely NOT insult or waste time in any other manner I wouldn't take those odds, if I were you. Being 35 is no guarantee of not-being-an-asshole.

notyourday 9y ago

I am going to speculate that it is incredibly unlikely that those 12 year old are going to grow up to be well behaved adults. I'm also going to speculate that the vast majority of those twelve year olds do not telegraph their wickedness to anyone in their life or their social circles - parents, teachers, relatives, etc because for last several decades US adult population has been playing ostrich pretending that the disgusting behavior of junior is only a problem for the juniors of those unwashed masses from the redneck South and cannot possibly ever come from the home of the NPR listening, PBS supporting, women's march going family.

Slansitartop 9y ago
> it is incredibly unlikely that those 12 year old are going to grow up to be well behaved adults I'm glad you're very unlikely to work in any kind of K-12 educational setting, given how eagerly you write kids off.
heartles 9y ago
While I think the other commenter on this post stated their point unhelpfully rudely, I agree that I think you're writing the child off too quickly. I'd imagine that giving up on a kid at this stage would only make it less likely that they realize how terrible they are being. Even if adults don't know that a kid is being shitty, they can still lead by example towards a happier outcome

DarkWiiPlayer 9y ago

If these are really just edgy 12 year olds, then I don't even see the problem in their behaviour itself as much as the fact that it's not possible to identify them as just edgy kids. It's probably not that they need to find out what they are doing is wrong, they probably even know that already, but that they find out that it doesn't make them cool or special or in any way better, which is what they most likely believe when they do stuff like that. A woman (or man, for that matter) who really gets distressed by being insulted by a 12 year old kid certainly shouldn't be the norm, and I don't believe they are. If every one of those chat messages had a button to "forward this to their parent", they would look completely harmless, but with the anonymity the internet provides, they are just chat messages from what could very well be a 30 year old man, making the dumb prank of an even dumber kid seem like way more than it is. What I think would be interesting is some sort of age statistic, because I expect at least two thirds if not more of these messages to be from people under 15. And since somebody will undoubtedly interpret this message like that, no, I am not saying all online harassment can be dismissed, only the large majority of it.