4 ms·

The article seems to contradict itself: > The idea sees two payments of £5,000 paid over two years, but certain state benefits and tax reliefs would be removed

The article seems to contradict itself: > The idea sees two payments of £5,000 paid over two years, but certain state benefits and tax reliefs would be removed at the same time. > Payments would come from a British sovereign wealth fund in the form of two annual £5,000 dividends, the RSA proposes. It's not really Universal either: > applicants would only have to demonstrate how they intended to use the money

OscarCunningham 9y ago
Yeah it says that we would have to demonstrate how we would use the money, but it doesn't say what a sufficiently good reason is.
TomK32 9y ago
I'm sure the DWP will come up with many ideas on the "intend to use the money", just like when cutting disability benefits. Can't walk more the 10 minutes to the shops? No money!
- dazc 9y ago
  Friend of mine gets disability benefits and your comment is inaccurate.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Several friends of mine and a family member get disability benefits and the assessment process is horrendous. We've encountered lots of variants of "if you're able to attend this interview there can't be anything wrong which would prevent you from getting a job, so no money for you".
    - gambiting 9y ago
      There's a semi-famous case where the person had a heart attack during the medical interview(in a way he was lucky that the attending nurse recognized the heart attack and called an ambulance straight away) - but because they had to stop the interview half-way through, he was declared no-show and had all his payments cut to zero.
  - 9point6 9y ago
    You're aware there's a mass of evidence that the DWP is, at best, ineffective and trending towards excessively cruel in its capability assessments? It's not exactly something that's gone unreported. Your friend is lucky, I know several people personally who have been dragged through the courts for months before they were able to get their incorrect assessment overturned.
    - dazc 9y ago
      You know someone who's been refused because he can walk to the shops (re my comment)?
      - jdietrich 9y ago
        I used to be a welfare benefits adviser. Even under the old system, I saw absurd decisions that were overturned on appeal. Under the new system of ESA and PIP, assessments have become a complete farce. ATOS/Maximus assessors have no real training in health and social care and appear to be incentivised to reject claims. The stricter regime for both ESA and JSA has created a dreadful gap in the benefits system - people who aren't sick enough to claim ESA, but too sick to claim JSA. Many people with health conditions that vary over time are refused ESA because their condition is quite mild at the time of assessment, then repeatedly sanctioned on JSA because they become too sick to keep up with their jobseeking activity obligations. There appears to have been a particularly severe impact on people with mental health conditions and learning disabilities. Our benefits system has become overly complex and extremely unforgiving. A relatively minor error can leave someone completely destitute. The services that help people navigate the benefits system are under severe pressure due to austerity cuts. I'm no bleeding-heart liberal, but I think that our benefits system has become callous, unreasonable and ineffective in preventing poverty.
    - dazc 9y ago
      Yes, a mass of evidence yet none to refute my challenge?
      - nothrabannosir 9y ago
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- keypress 9y ago
  This reminds me of jobstart, basically I got turfed of benefits at about the time I needed them. I kindly got a grant towards some transportation fees, if I'd go self-employed (0hrs contract, no guaranteed employment). What I really could have done with is a little hand holding and support in a work or volunteer placement - rather than feeling stigmatised. In the UK Government's eyes: one less unemployed. I could have spent the money on a suit and shoes. Money doesn't go that far, at the time I could barely afford to clothe, feed myself and had tenuous accommodation. Stability of housing and the other bare essentials put you in a better position to job. It's all a bit chicken and egg.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    Given the way WFTC works, some people believe that a lot of people moved from being "on benefits" to being "self employed for zero hours for zero money"; with a bit of tax planning this could provide a better income without having to deal with the jobcentre jobsworths. http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t...
    - keypress 9y ago
      Gutted to find that perhaps I could have been buoyed by working tax credits. That I have never claimed. Self-employment hasn't worked out for me - just left me with more and more debt. Years ago I think the LSE ran a study, that concluded, you may as well just close all job centres, and give a no questions asked hand-out instead. There's a stigma attached to bad jobs, benefits, and poor income - and with some of that lifted, it might provide a better seed-bed for some business. Benefits are generally designed for short-term-ism, you can survive on not a lot, but opportunities are removed. Even basic socialisation becomes hard: you can't afford a drink in the pub. That being said, I've never been poorer than being self-employed. I know it works for some, and there are benefits, but it doesn't work for all.
tankenmate 9y ago
And so by people having to demonstrate what they will use the money for will kill one of the benefits of UBI, the low administration cost. That and you can be sure that once they collect this information sooner or later some politician will come along and put the clamp on it for certain people as soon as the economy turns a little for the worse (which no doubt will make things even more worse).
walshemj 9y ago
Yes right I going to give up The benefits of my ISA (id hit the dividend tax on a single one of my ISA investments) Pension relief at my top rate - hopefully 40% at my next gig 5 Years NI contributions towards state pension

OscarCunningham 9y ago

Yeah it says that we would have to demonstrate how we would use the money, but it doesn't say what a sufficiently good reason is.

TomK32 9y ago

I'm sure the DWP will come up with many ideas on the "intend to use the money", just like when cutting disability benefits. Can't walk more the 10 minutes to the shops? No money!

dazc 9y ago
Friend of mine gets disability benefits and your comment is inaccurate.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Several friends of mine and a family member get disability benefits and the assessment process is horrendous. We've encountered lots of variants of "if you're able to attend this interview there can't be anything wrong which would prevent you from getting a job, so no money for you".
  - gambiting 9y ago
    There's a semi-famous case where the person had a heart attack during the medical interview(in a way he was lucky that the attending nurse recognized the heart attack and called an ambulance straight away) - but because they had to stop the interview half-way through, he was declared no-show and had all his payments cut to zero.
- 9point6 9y ago
  You're aware there's a mass of evidence that the DWP is, at best, ineffective and trending towards excessively cruel in its capability assessments? It's not exactly something that's gone unreported. Your friend is lucky, I know several people personally who have been dragged through the courts for months before they were able to get their incorrect assessment overturned.
  - dazc 9y ago
    You know someone who's been refused because he can walk to the shops (re my comment)?
    - jdietrich 9y ago
      I used to be a welfare benefits adviser. Even under the old system, I saw absurd decisions that were overturned on appeal. Under the new system of ESA and PIP, assessments have become a complete farce. ATOS/Maximus assessors have no real training in health and social care and appear to be incentivised to reject claims. The stricter regime for both ESA and JSA has created a dreadful gap in the benefits system - people who aren't sick enough to claim ESA, but too sick to claim JSA. Many people with health conditions that vary over time are refused ESA because their condition is quite mild at the time of assessment, then repeatedly sanctioned on JSA because they become too sick to keep up with their jobseeking activity obligations. There appears to have been a particularly severe impact on people with mental health conditions and learning disabilities. Our benefits system has become overly complex and extremely unforgiving. A relatively minor error can leave someone completely destitute. The services that help people navigate the benefits system are under severe pressure due to austerity cuts. I'm no bleeding-heart liberal, but I think that our benefits system has become callous, unreasonable and ineffective in preventing poverty.
  - dazc 9y ago
    Yes, a mass of evidence yet none to refute my challenge?
    - nothrabannosir 9y ago
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
keypress 9y ago
This reminds me of jobstart, basically I got turfed of benefits at about the time I needed them. I kindly got a grant towards some transportation fees, if I'd go self-employed (0hrs contract, no guaranteed employment). What I really could have done with is a little hand holding and support in a work or volunteer placement - rather than feeling stigmatised. In the UK Government's eyes: one less unemployed. I could have spent the money on a suit and shoes. Money doesn't go that far, at the time I could barely afford to clothe, feed myself and had tenuous accommodation. Stability of housing and the other bare essentials put you in a better position to job. It's all a bit chicken and egg.
- pjc50 9y ago
  Given the way WFTC works, some people believe that a lot of people moved from being "on benefits" to being "self employed for zero hours for zero money"; with a bit of tax planning this could provide a better income without having to deal with the jobcentre jobsworths. http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-towards-a-low-trust-society/ http://www.harrowell.org.uk/blog/2013/03/03/the-transition-t...
  - keypress 9y ago
    Gutted to find that perhaps I could have been buoyed by working tax credits. That I have never claimed. Self-employment hasn't worked out for me - just left me with more and more debt. Years ago I think the LSE ran a study, that concluded, you may as well just close all job centres, and give a no questions asked hand-out instead. There's a stigma attached to bad jobs, benefits, and poor income - and with some of that lifted, it might provide a better seed-bed for some business. Benefits are generally designed for short-term-ism, you can survive on not a lot, but opportunities are removed. Even basic socialisation becomes hard: you can't afford a drink in the pub. That being said, I've never been poorer than being self-employed. I know it works for some, and there are benefits, but it doesn't work for all.

tankenmate 9y ago

And so by people having to demonstrate what they will use the money for will kill one of the benefits of UBI, the low administration cost. That and you can be sure that once they collect this information sooner or later some politician will come along and put the clamp on it for certain people as soon as the economy turns a little for the worse (which no doubt will make things even more worse).

walshemj 9y ago

Yes right I going to give up The benefits of my ISA (id hit the dividend tax on a single one of my ISA investments) Pension relief at my top rate - hopefully 40% at my next gig 5 Years NI contributions towards state pension