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The majority of people who could use Linux exclusively (only need a browser, don't need Office compatibility, nothing fancy) buy a "just works" Windows laptop o

The majority of people who could use Linux exclusively (only need a browser, don't need Office compatibility, nothing fancy) buy a "just works" Windows laptop or tablet and I bet 99% of them don't even know what Linux is. Even then you get some weird cases like banking software not working on Linux and they ask you to install Windows again. And kids wants to play what their friends are playing, it's hard to break the cycle. Oh you want to play PUBG? Too bad. Some games you might even be able to make it work with some baby sitting but it will drain all your energy and you are not getting paid for the job. If you want Linux to have a chance it needs to play the long game and that won't ever happen. Everything I own except my gaming PC is Linux but it's not even worth trying to convert others. I find pretty immature to suggest "if your job demands Windows, just quit", "just spend 20 hours trying to make this thing that just works in Windows", "you don't need AAA games". I say immature because I was doing this shit a few years ago and I still cringe about it. In my experience trying to teach people about the importance of privacy is mostly futile. What worked was, and I only did this to a close family friend, to show him what I could learn about him just by showing what was stored in AppData and many other folders. Some thumbnails will be forever ingrained in my mind.

thomastjeffery 9y ago
I'm getting sick of this dichotomy. It's trivial to install both. Keep windows 10 on a partition big enough for your games/Netflix/etc., and use Debian/Archlinux/NixOS/whatever for everything else.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  Trivial to install both but a real hassle to actually use both.
  - juliangoldsmith 9y ago
    Not really. You reboot your computer, and press a key to pick which one you want.
    - emodendroket 9y ago
      That, in itself, can be kind of annoying (interrupt all your downloads or whatever you are doing), and it doesn't get at the other issues -- having to run updates for both, having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other, doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do, and so on. Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options.
      - thomastjeffery 9y ago
        > That, in itself, can be kind of annoying Of course, but is it more annoying than using Windows all the time? OP leads me to belive a growing number of windows users might think otherwise. It's also worth noting that rebooting is an order of magnitude faster than it was 10 years ago. > having to run updates for both Updates are a pain in Windows, but they are not in any serious GNU/Linux distro I have ever used. This is one of the main reasons that users are frustrated with Windows in the first place. > having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other This is a real problem when you are using Windows, but not when you are using Linux. The idea here is to only use Windows when you need it anyway. It's an inconvenience, sure, but is it more of an inconvenience than using Windows all the time? That's up to the user. Personally, the answer is no. > doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do Not so much, if you seriously use GNU/Linux for everything you don't need Windows for. Besides, configuration isn't a big issue unless you are like me, and want everything exactly your way; although, GNU/Linux is the only way I can get that. > Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options. That's you, and that's fine. The best setup for you is almost definitely not the best setup for most other people. That is the entire reason to use and promote free software: liberty. Windows has made dual-booting difficult on purpose, because proprietary software begets proprietary software and control. Thankfully, there has been plenty of work in the other direction for those of us who want to control our computers, as opposed to the inverse.
        emodendroket 9y ago
  - keithnz 9y ago
    Trvial once you choose your distro :) funny thing is when you install various distros you have a look at what's installed and you go "geeze it's installed a bunch of crap apps" I used to run dual boot, but then got annoyed with that, then used windows primarily and VM'd linux, and now I use the linux subsystem in windows and occassionally fire up the VM.
- youseecomrade 9y ago
  I don't understand your point. If you're talking about my setup it doesn't really matter (I only use Windows for gaming and at work). If it's about maintaining friends and family computers with dual boot then good luck with that. For the rest and vast majority of people, that panics when a desktop icon moves, dual boot will fry their brains.
  - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
    The people whose brains are not fried by dual booting should be dual booting and moving the platform steadily forward to reduce the excuses for the people whose brains are fried by dual booting.
    - youseecomrade 9y ago
      So basically you want me to setup dual boot, teach, offer free support for the rest of their lives, for every person that I know? Because that's the only group who could do what we are talking about. Or maybe you want me to convince them they should pay someone else to do that because Stallman was right. I'm sure some people are lucky enough to have friends and family who would accept your values instantly, learn the setup easily and be glad to pay someone else to do it. I can only speak from my own experiences and they don't reflect that (and as much as I might make a comment here and there I won't ever again try to push "my values" down someone's else throat).
      - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
        Did you even read my comment?
        youseecomrade 9y ago
        I did and that reply is based on me not believing a few "coders" will make year of the Linux desktop ever happen. So if you need Linux: it won't be viable alone in the near future (I'm talking about Linux offering everything Windows users need, like commercial software and AAA games so they don't need anything else) for the non tech savvy person and dual boot is also not an option in most cases unless there's some technical person "sponsoring" the whole deal. Either paid or not.
- ShabbosGoy 9y ago
  Netflix works fine on Linux. You can even run it on a Raspberry Pi.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    Netflix does not allow 1080p streaming to a browser other than Safari/Edge/IE. I did try this firefox plugin[0], and it works sometimes, but it is a bit flaky. [0] https://github.com/vladikoff/netflix-1080p-firefox#with-extension https://github.com/vladikoff/netflix-1080p-firefox#with-exte...
- soared 9y ago
  Trivial for someone who could use linux. 99.9% of computer users don't even know dual booting is possible. Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI.
  - dyukqu 9y ago
    You have to disable both "fast startup" and "secure boot" in order to install linux. (I installed Ubuntu 17.10 alongside Win10 few weeks ago on my UEFI laptop.)
    - funkymike 9y ago
      I gave up on dual booting on a regular basis when Windows 10, once again, turned fast startup back on with a forced update. Now I use linux for everything at home. Windows 10 is basically malware at this point.
      - twostoned 9y ago
        I agree about the malware, I often make this analogy. I was in an exam today and people went to turn on their computers to write the test, we have two hours, and Windows decides to do an update. No asking, no options. These aren't power users; these people struggle with basic computing and are trying to get through school. So the administration worked with them so they could actually write the test but come on. You don't have control of your machine with Windows and I find that inappropriate.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    > Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI. Does it have "secure boot" that can't be disabled/other keys added?
  - colemickens 9y ago
    Never once has this been true when I've pressed someone on it. It's FUD that's been repeated for years and oft reinvigorated by people that can't be bothered to Google or change a couple UEFI settings. It's not even true in many (most?) cases that Secure Boot must be disabled.
- majormajor 9y ago
  If you're going to to claim it's trivial, maybe you shouldn't mention Arch in the same sentence. :p You don't want someone's first impression of Linux to be that. Typing this from a laptop that has an Arch partition. I use it all the time for dev stuff. It sure as fuck wasn't trivial to set up.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  I've done it. It is indeed trivial to install both. But nobody cares how easy it is to install both. Using both is a huge pain.
  - youseecomrade 9y ago
    rEFInd is a good option if you don't like things changing under your feet
- GordonS 9y ago
  A super-simple alternative is WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux), which let's you run Ubuntu in Windows 10 - I'm sure it won't work for some use cases (e.g running the docker daemon), but it's really rather good! Bash is so much more powerful than the Windows shell, and try as I might I just don't like Powershell, so WSL gives me a great shell while running in Windows - no need for rebooting or VMs!
  - youseecomrade 9y ago
    The point was about not being spied on, so not using Windows in the first place. They think dual boot could be used to minimize Windows usage, when absolutely required.
- coryfklein 9y ago
  Many computers these days have an SSD and an HDD. Is it trivial to dual boot in that case? Do you partition both? One? Which one? After partitioning, which partition do you install your OS on?
  - TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
    Yes, it's pretty trivial. Ubuntu handles everything with the installation, then GRUB provides a boot menu that lets you choose which OS to use. More granular control is available to those who care, but it's still easy for those who don't care.
  - thomastjeffery 9y ago
    It's trivial. You have your disks listed, each with its free/used space. You click the one you want to install to, and drag a slider to decide how much space to use. That's how easy it was to install Ubuntu over a decade ago.
- avsteele 9y ago
  Disagree. YMMV, but the last time I tried to install both I had a nightmarish time. Fedora worked, but both Ubuntu and Mint gave me massive headaches. Even when I got one installed I had problems with getting flat mouse speeds, not being able to adjust mouse scroll wheel speeds, even the frickin clock was even messed up. ( had to dig around for the issue then figure out the two OSes where saving the time in different ways every time each shut down) I've got pages of notes for fixes to various issues I encountered trying to get dual booting working smoothly. There's no way I'd recommend this to anyone who wants a computer that actually works without a hassle.

thomastjeffery 9y ago

I'm getting sick of this dichotomy. It's trivial to install both. Keep windows 10 on a partition big enough for your games/Netflix/etc., and use Debian/Archlinux/NixOS/whatever for everything else.

emodendroket 9y ago
Trivial to install both but a real hassle to actually use both.
- juliangoldsmith 9y ago
  Not really. You reboot your computer, and press a key to pick which one you want.
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    That, in itself, can be kind of annoying (interrupt all your downloads or whatever you are doing), and it doesn't get at the other issues -- having to run updates for both, having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other, doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do, and so on. Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options.
    - thomastjeffery 9y ago
      > That, in itself, can be kind of annoying Of course, but is it more annoying than using Windows all the time? OP leads me to belive a growing number of windows users might think otherwise. It's also worth noting that rebooting is an order of magnitude faster than it was 10 years ago. > having to run updates for both Updates are a pain in Windows, but they are not in any serious GNU/Linux distro I have ever used. This is one of the main reasons that users are frustrated with Windows in the first place. > having two incompatible filesystems where it's annoying to fetch a document from one and use it on the other This is a real problem when you are using Windows, but not when you are using Linux. The idea here is to only use Windows when you need it anyway. It's an inconvenience, sure, but is it more of an inconvenience than using Windows all the time? That's up to the user. Personally, the answer is no. > doubling the amount of setup and configuration you have to do Not so much, if you seriously use GNU/Linux for everything you don't need Windows for. Besides, configuration isn't a big issue unless you are like me, and want everything exactly your way; although, GNU/Linux is the only way I can get that. > Every time I've set up a dual-boot system I've ended up just never using one of the options. That's you, and that's fine. The best setup for you is almost definitely not the best setup for most other people. That is the entire reason to use and promote free software: liberty. Windows has made dual-booting difficult on purpose, because proprietary software begets proprietary software and control. Thankfully, there has been plenty of work in the other direction for those of us who want to control our computers, as opposed to the inverse.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
- keithnz 9y ago
  Trvial once you choose your distro :) funny thing is when you install various distros you have a look at what's installed and you go "geeze it's installed a bunch of crap apps" I used to run dual boot, but then got annoyed with that, then used windows primarily and VM'd linux, and now I use the linux subsystem in windows and occassionally fire up the VM.
youseecomrade 9y ago
I don't understand your point. If you're talking about my setup it doesn't really matter (I only use Windows for gaming and at work). If it's about maintaining friends and family computers with dual boot then good luck with that. For the rest and vast majority of people, that panics when a desktop icon moves, dual boot will fry their brains.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  The people whose brains are not fried by dual booting should be dual booting and moving the platform steadily forward to reduce the excuses for the people whose brains are fried by dual booting.
  - youseecomrade 9y ago
    So basically you want me to setup dual boot, teach, offer free support for the rest of their lives, for every person that I know? Because that's the only group who could do what we are talking about. Or maybe you want me to convince them they should pay someone else to do that because Stallman was right. I'm sure some people are lucky enough to have friends and family who would accept your values instantly, learn the setup easily and be glad to pay someone else to do it. I can only speak from my own experiences and they don't reflect that (and as much as I might make a comment here and there I won't ever again try to push "my values" down someone's else throat).
    - Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
      Did you even read my comment?
      - youseecomrade 9y ago
        I did and that reply is based on me not believing a few "coders" will make year of the Linux desktop ever happen. So if you need Linux: it won't be viable alone in the near future (I'm talking about Linux offering everything Windows users need, like commercial software and AAA games so they don't need anything else) for the non tech savvy person and dual boot is also not an option in most cases unless there's some technical person "sponsoring" the whole deal. Either paid or not.
ShabbosGoy 9y ago
Netflix works fine on Linux. You can even run it on a Raspberry Pi.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  Netflix does not allow 1080p streaming to a browser other than Safari/Edge/IE. I did try this firefox plugin[0], and it works sometimes, but it is a bit flaky. [0] https://github.com/vladikoff/netflix-1080p-firefox#with-extension https://github.com/vladikoff/netflix-1080p-firefox#with-exte...
soared 9y ago
Trivial for someone who could use linux. 99.9% of computer users don't even know dual booting is possible. Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI.
- dyukqu 9y ago
  You have to disable both "fast startup" and "secure boot" in order to install linux. (I installed Ubuntu 17.10 alongside Win10 few weeks ago on my UEFI laptop.)
  - funkymike 9y ago
    I gave up on dual booting on a regular basis when Windows 10, once again, turned fast startup back on with a forced update. Now I use linux for everything at home. Windows 10 is basically malware at this point.
    - twostoned 9y ago
      I agree about the malware, I often make this analogy. I was in an exam today and people went to turn on their computers to write the test, we have two hours, and Windows decides to do an update. No asking, no options. These aren't power users; these people struggle with basic computing and are trying to get through school. So the administration worked with them so they could actually write the test but come on. You don't have control of your machine with Windows and I find that inappropriate.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  > Also my laptop literally cannot have linux installed on it thanks to UEFI. Does it have "secure boot" that can't be disabled/other keys added?
- colemickens 9y ago
  Never once has this been true when I've pressed someone on it. It's FUD that's been repeated for years and oft reinvigorated by people that can't be bothered to Google or change a couple UEFI settings. It's not even true in many (most?) cases that Secure Boot must be disabled.
majormajor 9y ago
If you're going to to claim it's trivial, maybe you shouldn't mention Arch in the same sentence. :p You don't want someone's first impression of Linux to be that. Typing this from a laptop that has an Arch partition. I use it all the time for dev stuff. It sure as fuck wasn't trivial to set up.
thaumasiotes 9y ago
I've done it. It is indeed trivial to install both. But nobody cares how easy it is to install both. Using both is a huge pain.
- youseecomrade 9y ago
  rEFInd is a good option if you don't like things changing under your feet
GordonS 9y ago
A super-simple alternative is WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux), which let's you run Ubuntu in Windows 10 - I'm sure it won't work for some use cases (e.g running the docker daemon), but it's really rather good! Bash is so much more powerful than the Windows shell, and try as I might I just don't like Powershell, so WSL gives me a great shell while running in Windows - no need for rebooting or VMs!
- youseecomrade 9y ago
  The point was about not being spied on, so not using Windows in the first place. They think dual boot could be used to minimize Windows usage, when absolutely required.
coryfklein 9y ago
Many computers these days have an SSD and an HDD. Is it trivial to dual boot in that case? Do you partition both? One? Which one? After partitioning, which partition do you install your OS on?
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Yes, it's pretty trivial. Ubuntu handles everything with the installation, then GRUB provides a boot menu that lets you choose which OS to use. More granular control is available to those who care, but it's still easy for those who don't care.
- thomastjeffery 9y ago
  It's trivial. You have your disks listed, each with its free/used space. You click the one you want to install to, and drag a slider to decide how much space to use. That's how easy it was to install Ubuntu over a decade ago.
avsteele 9y ago
Disagree. YMMV, but the last time I tried to install both I had a nightmarish time. Fedora worked, but both Ubuntu and Mint gave me massive headaches. Even when I got one installed I had problems with getting flat mouse speeds, not being able to adjust mouse scroll wheel speeds, even the frickin clock was even messed up. ( had to dig around for the issue then figure out the two OSes where saving the time in different ways every time each shut down) I've got pages of notes for fixes to various issues I encountered trying to get dual booting working smoothly. There's no way I'd recommend this to anyone who wants a computer that actually works without a hassle.