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No, it's a massive statement, and I think you're being intellectually dishonest to assert it's not. The counterargument is also a huge statement, none of us are

No, it's a massive statement, and I think you're being intellectually dishonest to assert it's not. The counterargument is also a huge statement, none of us are saying it's not. The only reason the counterargument is slightly more palatable is because it conforms to Occam's Razor. > because they consciously and continuously choose to be poor is ridiculous on its face This is a blatant straw man. We are saying they don't make wise choices for a myriad of reasons, not that they intentionally choose to be poor. Edit: If you make bad choices in life the end result will be poverty. That doesn't mean you chose poverty consciously.

Zungaron 9y ago
You can make bad choices and still end up rich. That's the entire premise behind the lottery. You can also make good choices and end up poor. A great example of this is anyone who got a law degree before the recession.
linkmotif 9y ago
> This is a blatant straw man. Totally. And then dismissing something as "ridiculous on its face" without following up as to why? :(
- djtriptych 9y ago
  No one wishes poverty on themselves.
djtriptych 9y ago
Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. Or: we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good. Tell me again about Occam?
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  > we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good No, I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me I didn't make good choices and work hard to get where I'm at. I paid my own way through college by working nights, got my first job in I.T. by repairing thrift-store computers and selling them on eBay, and chose to work hard in school because I knew it was important. My parent's money didn't make a difference, what did make a difference was the lessons they taught me, and the interest they took in my education. > We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. There are almost no children in America who don't have access to food, shelter, and education. The only thing you are right about is parental support, but not in regard to food/shelter, what most kids don't have in America are parents who force them to focus on education and financial responsibility. If you wan't to succeed in America, there are limitless options, most of which are extremely hard. That's the real problem. I didn't get to where I'm at because of my parents. I got there because I worked 60 hour weeks, and studied subjects I cared nothing about, but knew would benefit me in the long run. It was fairly hard, but completely doable. I'm willing to make the assertion that anyone, regardless of their background or parental support, can go to community college, work to pay their way through, get a reasonable degree, and move into the middle class within 10 years. Edit: Forgot to address your other points. > Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. If you don't make the right choices, it's your fault. It's unfortunate, but it's still your fault. > We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. Yes, this is a perfectly reasonable expectation.

Zungaron 9y ago

You can make bad choices and still end up rich. That's the entire premise behind the lottery. You can also make good choices and end up poor. A great example of this is anyone who got a law degree before the recession.

linkmotif 9y ago

> This is a blatant straw man. Totally. And then dismissing something as "ridiculous on its face" without following up as to why? :(

djtriptych 9y ago
No one wishes poverty on themselves.

djtriptych 9y ago

Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. Or: we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good. Tell me again about Occam?

neveroffensive 9y ago
> we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good No, I'm not going to sit here and let you tell me I didn't make good choices and work hard to get where I'm at. I paid my own way through college by working nights, got my first job in I.T. by repairing thrift-store computers and selling them on eBay, and chose to work hard in school because I knew it was important. My parent's money didn't make a difference, what did make a difference was the lessons they taught me, and the interest they took in my education. > We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. There are almost no children in America who don't have access to food, shelter, and education. The only thing you are right about is parental support, but not in regard to food/shelter, what most kids don't have in America are parents who force them to focus on education and financial responsibility. If you wan't to succeed in America, there are limitless options, most of which are extremely hard. That's the real problem. I didn't get to where I'm at because of my parents. I got there because I worked 60 hour weeks, and studied subjects I cared nothing about, but knew would benefit me in the long run. It was fairly hard, but completely doable. I'm willing to make the assertion that anyone, regardless of their background or parental support, can go to community college, work to pay their way through, get a reasonable degree, and move into the middle class within 10 years. Edit: Forgot to address your other points. > Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. If you don't make the right choices, it's your fault. It's unfortunate, but it's still your fault. > We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. Yes, this is a perfectly reasonable expectation.