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I think it's dangerous to take your situation and apply it to everyone in poverty. Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your speci

I think it's dangerous to take your situation and apply it to everyone in poverty. Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case.

bequanna 9y ago
> Most people are there because they don't have a way out ... You're refuting an anecdotal example with an unsubstantiated claim.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
  Then they should get equal weight. I know poor people who are there do to uncontrollable circumstance - bad schools, sick family members, take your pick. I think if you exist in a western country and you don't know a single person who is poor by virtue of circumstance and not by choice then you're not doing near enough to leave your bubble.
linkmotif 9y ago
> Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case. That’s a huge statement. How would you back that up? “Most” people? Who? When? Why?
- djtriptych 9y ago
  It's not a huge statement. The counterargument, that most poor people are there because they consciously and continuously choose to be poor is ridiculous on its face.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - neveroffensive 9y ago
    No, it's a massive statement, and I think you're being intellectually dishonest to assert it's not. The counterargument is also a huge statement, none of us are saying it's not. The only reason the counterargument is slightly more palatable is because it conforms to Occam's Razor. > because they consciously and continuously choose to be poor is ridiculous on its face This is a blatant straw man. We are saying they don't make wise choices for a myriad of reasons, not that they intentionally choose to be poor. Edit: If you make bad choices in life the end result will be poverty. That doesn't mean you chose poverty consciously.
    - Zungaron 9y ago
      You can make bad choices and still end up rich. That's the entire premise behind the lottery. You can also make good choices and end up poor. A great example of this is anyone who got a law degree before the recession.
    - linkmotif 9y ago
      > This is a blatant straw man. Totally. And then dismissing something as "ridiculous on its face" without following up as to why? :(
      - djtriptych 9y ago
        No one wishes poverty on themselves.
    - djtriptych 9y ago
      Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. Or: we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good. Tell me again about Occam?
      - 9y ago
  - bdcravens 9y ago
    I think you're mischaracterizing. No one chooses poverty; poverty is an aggregate result of other choices.
bdcravens 9y ago
I agree, there will always be exceptions. My bigger point is that you must accept N% of failure if all you're addressing is the money part of the equation. My opinion is that N is a much higher number than is socially acceptable.
djtriptych 9y ago
It's extremely dangerous and rather divorced from reality. Just an anti-PC self-congratulatory tirade. Why posts like this get upvoted is truly beyond me.
neveroffensive 9y ago
> Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case. I disagree, although I can't really give anything more than the same anecdotal evidence that's already been given. Both of my parents grew up only slightly above the poverty line. It was entirely because of choices their parents made. They didn't make the same mistakes, and are now both well positioned in the middle class. How? Essentially, they both just put themselves through school. That's all it really took. A few loans, and a fast food job on the side, got them the education they needed to break the poverty cycle. I think the truth is neither of us have enough real evidence to be making the assertions we are making. For every anecdotal case you find of someone stuck in poverty, I guarantee I can find a case of someone who made a few simple choices and got out of poverty. What we really need are more studies like this that produce empirical data on the subject. Then we can start to argue whether poverty is a choice or a social class people are forced into.

I think it's dangerous to take your situation and apply it to everyone in poverty. Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case.

bequanna 9y ago

> Most people are there because they don't have a way out ... You're refuting an anecdotal example with an unsubstantiated claim.

frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago
Then they should get equal weight. I know poor people who are there do to uncontrollable circumstance - bad schools, sick family members, take your pick. I think if you exist in a western country and you don't know a single person who is poor by virtue of circumstance and not by choice then you're not doing near enough to leave your bubble.

linkmotif 9y ago

> Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case. That’s a huge statement. How would you back that up? “Most” people? Who? When? Why?

djtriptych 9y ago
It's not a huge statement. The counterargument, that most poor people are there because they consciously and continuously choose to be poor is ridiculous on its face.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- neveroffensive 9y ago
  No, it's a massive statement, and I think you're being intellectually dishonest to assert it's not. The counterargument is also a huge statement, none of us are saying it's not. The only reason the counterargument is slightly more palatable is because it conforms to Occam's Razor. > because they consciously and continuously choose to be poor is ridiculous on its face This is a blatant straw man. We are saying they don't make wise choices for a myriad of reasons, not that they intentionally choose to be poor. Edit: If you make bad choices in life the end result will be poverty. That doesn't mean you chose poverty consciously.
  - Zungaron 9y ago
    You can make bad choices and still end up rich. That's the entire premise behind the lottery. You can also make good choices and end up poor. A great example of this is anyone who got a law degree before the recession.
  - linkmotif 9y ago
    > This is a blatant straw man. Totally. And then dismissing something as "ridiculous on its face" without following up as to why? :(
    - djtriptych 9y ago
      No one wishes poverty on themselves.
  - djtriptych 9y ago
    Sure. All of us here would have made the correct hundred thousand or so choices and avoided the enormous number of traps and inherent dangers of poverty. We would have gone from poor five year olds to wealthy 30 year olds by force of will. We would have had the energy and resources and parental support to source our food, health, shelter, and education for our first 18 years because we make such great decisions. Or: we believe we _are_ good because we _have_ it good. Tell me again about Occam?
    - 9y ago
- bdcravens 9y ago
  I think you're mischaracterizing. No one chooses poverty; poverty is an aggregate result of other choices.

bdcravens 9y ago

I agree, there will always be exceptions. My bigger point is that you must accept N% of failure if all you're addressing is the money part of the equation. My opinion is that N is a much higher number than is socially acceptable.

djtriptych 9y ago

It's extremely dangerous and rather divorced from reality. Just an anti-PC self-congratulatory tirade. Why posts like this get upvoted is truly beyond me.

neveroffensive 9y ago

> Most people are there because they don't have a way out even if in your specific circumstance that wasn't the case. I disagree, although I can't really give anything more than the same anecdotal evidence that's already been given. Both of my parents grew up only slightly above the poverty line. It was entirely because of choices their parents made. They didn't make the same mistakes, and are now both well positioned in the middle class. How? Essentially, they both just put themselves through school. That's all it really took. A few loans, and a fast food job on the side, got them the education they needed to break the poverty cycle. I think the truth is neither of us have enough real evidence to be making the assertions we are making. For every anecdotal case you find of someone stuck in poverty, I guarantee I can find a case of someone who made a few simple choices and got out of poverty. What we really need are more studies like this that produce empirical data on the subject. Then we can start to argue whether poverty is a choice or a social class people are forced into.