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Huh? Let me get this straight: you expect people to accept patronage. But you then don’t want the patrons to be patronizing? How does that work? Generally spea

Huh? Let me get this straight: you expect people to accept patronage. But you then don’t want the patrons to be patronizing? How does that work? Generally speaking, aren’t poor people poor because either they don’t know how to be not poor or can’t execute being not poor? Yes, sometimes it’s impossible to execute being rich, like if there is a systematic bias against a certain cohort. But cases like that aside, isn’t it pretty obvious that poor people either cannot or do not know how to not be poor? Your perspective seems to suggest being poor just happens randomly to random people. But that’s not true. Being poor happens to people who fail to get and keep money from other people. Any time someone talks about patronizing poor people it’s like: yeah either we’re not going to talk about them being poor like that’s a bad thing, or we’re going to talk about it like it’s a bad thing and so maybe then we should figure out what they’re doing wrong when there are other people who are not poor. Pretending like everyone’s economic actions are equal is insensitive to people who get and keep money and patronizing to people who don’t. Not all economic actions are equally good. Setting money on fire is not a good economic action. It is offensive to the person whose labor created that value. Yet I see poor people doing all kinds of offensive economic actions with money given to them by the state. I see people using benefits cards to buy groceries that I would never buy because they are so expensive or unnecessary. If you don’t want to be judged, don’t take money from other people, because that is literally patronage, which is patronizing.

bryanlarsen 9y ago
Being poor is buying a 2 pack of toilet paper for $2 rather than an 8 pack for $4 because even though the 8 pack is a much better deal, the extra $2 will buy the loaf of bread you also need.
- nothrabannosir 9y ago
  This is something that’s easy to forget once you have money: lack of liquidity is expensive. The (ironic) gravity of cash means the more you have the more you get (interest), and the less you have the less you get (interest). Louis CK has a whole bit about this, back from when he was still broke: https://youtu.be/Y_-1l_SlA7c https://youtu.be/Y_-1l_SlA7c I guess time has done him well :)
- SilasX 9y ago
  The problem with that theory is that it implies that you could have a self-funding charity that just makes loans that enable such long-term purchases: "Hey, don't buy the two pack. We'll buy you the 8 pack if you pay us $1/month for the next 5 months." Client saves $3. Charity gets >50% annualized ROR. Perpetual virtuous cycle that ends all poverty. Why do you think no one's been able to pull off such a charity? Probably because the bottleneck isn't getting the initial capital, but being unable to stick to a plan even when it could pay off long-term. It sounds like the program in the story is trying to close that gap and give more immediate rewards.
  - learc83 9y ago
    >Why do you think no one's been able to pull off such a charity? It turns out there are numerous charities designed to provide liquidity to poor people through microloans. Many of them are very effective.
    - SilasX 9y ago
      In the third world, to self-starting entrepreneurs who already did the footwork of figuring out how the capital could quickly pay itself back, not the small-unit-buying clients in the American communities that the parent was diagnosing. (I was originally going to give a caveat about Kiva, etc.)
- linkmotif 9y ago
  It's true. Not to mention all the other examples in books like Nickel and Dimed. It's hard and shitty to be poor, and people exploit you. But you don't end up in endless poverty by making the right decisions. The United States can be a pretty brutal place, but comparing to human history it's actually incredibly forgiving and full of opportunity.
learc83 9y ago
A huge part of "can’t execute being not poor" is a direct effect of lack of resources. There is also plenty of research that shows that poverty is detrimental to mental health in a way that reinforces poverty. The insecurity from not knowing where your next meal will come from or not knowing were to sleep is a direct cause of poor decision making.
- egwynn 9y ago
  Yup, this is definitely a big part of it. I won't pretend like it's "the whole answer", but "poverty-induced executive dysfunction" is a real contributor to poor people staying poor.
sp332 9y ago
It does seem kinda random to me. "Contrary to popular belief," he wrote over the weekend, "the percentage of the population that directly encounters poverty is exceedingly high." Between the ages of 25 and 60, Rank has found, almost 40 percent of Americans will live at least one year below the poverty line. Yet over time, most also pull themselves back above of it. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/a-shockingly-high-number-of-americans-experience-poverty/281172/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/a-shock... Also the #1 reason people go into bankruptcy in this country is medical costs. That's not something that can be "executed".
- linkmotif 9y ago
  Being poor happens to people who have failed to get and keep money. Sometimes that starts with you, sometimes your ancestors. Obviously it’s easier to get money if you already have it. But if you’re poor, someone didn’t get it. Could be for messed up, unfair reasons. But it’s that simple. It’s not random. Getting wiped out by a medical event means you didn’t have health insurance. Health insurance is generally affordable despite what the GOP says, especially if you’re in poverty then you can get some really good Obamacare for free. Not buying insurance is just about the poorest thing you can do. Yes, before the ACA there was the the whole preexisting condition thing. There’s all kind of whack ass stuff out there. But I’m not talking about corner cases. I’m talking big picture. Step one to not being poor is having insurance.
  - sp332 9y ago
    Yes, I was taking it as axiomatic that poor people have less money than rich people. But having more or less money seems to correlate surprisingly weakly with knowledge or behavior. Of course people can do really dumb things but we're not talking about corner cases. I'm talking about the tens of millions of people who get poorer and then less poor without changing their knowledge or behavior very dramatically.
  - chatmasta 9y ago
    > sometimes your ancestors The sins of the father... > It’s not random But people cannot choose where, when, or to whom they are born.
jellicle 9y ago
> Generally speaking, aren’t poor people poor because either they don’t know how to be not poor or can’t execute being not poor? No. Generally speaking, people are poor because their parents were poor and because they are in a system which works to make and keep them poor.
- linkmotif 9y ago
  True, there is a system which works to make and keep them poor. That's undeniable. It's sort of this abusive relationship between the rich and poor, wherein the rich work really hard to keep the poor poor, but then blame them for it as well. But is there not a way that poor people could escape this system? Is there not some set of actions that the poor could take—and the poor are a strong majority of humanity, right?—that they would extricate themselves from the vice grip of the rich? Have they any agency? Or are they just so hopeless that it's impossible?
pdabbadabba 9y ago
> I see people using benefits cards to buy groceries that I would never buy because they are so expensive or unnecessary. I hear people make claims like this frequently and I always wonder if it could possibly be true. I can't remember the last time I paid any attention whatsoever to what other people were buying in the grocery store, much less their mode of payment. This sounds more like the repetition of a certain strain of conservative mythology (with a strong family resemblance to the infamously fictional "welfare queen") than actual anecdote. And if it is true: 1) Maybe consider giving your fellow shoppers a little privacy. And 2) I wonder: exactly what groceries are we talking about here that you can be so sure another person, whose life and preferences you know nothing about, is making not just a mistake, but being "economically offensive" by buying them? Voss bottled water is about the only thing I can think of that might fit the bill here.

bryanlarsen 9y ago

Being poor is buying a 2 pack of toilet paper for $2 rather than an 8 pack for $4 because even though the 8 pack is a much better deal, the extra $2 will buy the loaf of bread you also need.

nothrabannosir 9y ago
This is something that’s easy to forget once you have money: lack of liquidity is expensive. The (ironic) gravity of cash means the more you have the more you get (interest), and the less you have the less you get (interest). Louis CK has a whole bit about this, back from when he was still broke: https://youtu.be/Y_-1l_SlA7c https://youtu.be/Y_-1l_SlA7c I guess time has done him well :)
SilasX 9y ago
The problem with that theory is that it implies that you could have a self-funding charity that just makes loans that enable such long-term purchases: "Hey, don't buy the two pack. We'll buy you the 8 pack if you pay us $1/month for the next 5 months." Client saves $3. Charity gets >50% annualized ROR. Perpetual virtuous cycle that ends all poverty. Why do you think no one's been able to pull off such a charity? Probably because the bottleneck isn't getting the initial capital, but being unable to stick to a plan even when it could pay off long-term. It sounds like the program in the story is trying to close that gap and give more immediate rewards.
- learc83 9y ago
  >Why do you think no one's been able to pull off such a charity? It turns out there are numerous charities designed to provide liquidity to poor people through microloans. Many of them are very effective.
  - SilasX 9y ago
    In the third world, to self-starting entrepreneurs who already did the footwork of figuring out how the capital could quickly pay itself back, not the small-unit-buying clients in the American communities that the parent was diagnosing. (I was originally going to give a caveat about Kiva, etc.)
linkmotif 9y ago
It's true. Not to mention all the other examples in books like Nickel and Dimed. It's hard and shitty to be poor, and people exploit you. But you don't end up in endless poverty by making the right decisions. The United States can be a pretty brutal place, but comparing to human history it's actually incredibly forgiving and full of opportunity.

learc83 9y ago

A huge part of "can’t execute being not poor" is a direct effect of lack of resources. There is also plenty of research that shows that poverty is detrimental to mental health in a way that reinforces poverty. The insecurity from not knowing where your next meal will come from or not knowing were to sleep is a direct cause of poor decision making.

egwynn 9y ago
Yup, this is definitely a big part of it. I won't pretend like it's "the whole answer", but "poverty-induced executive dysfunction" is a real contributor to poor people staying poor.

sp332 9y ago

It does seem kinda random to me. "Contrary to popular belief," he wrote over the weekend, "the percentage of the population that directly encounters poverty is exceedingly high." Between the ages of 25 and 60, Rank has found, almost 40 percent of Americans will live at least one year below the poverty line. Yet over time, most also pull themselves back above of it. https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/a-shockingly-high-number-of-americans-experience-poverty/281172/ https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/11/a-shock... Also the #1 reason people go into bankruptcy in this country is medical costs. That's not something that can be "executed".

linkmotif 9y ago
Being poor happens to people who have failed to get and keep money. Sometimes that starts with you, sometimes your ancestors. Obviously it’s easier to get money if you already have it. But if you’re poor, someone didn’t get it. Could be for messed up, unfair reasons. But it’s that simple. It’s not random. Getting wiped out by a medical event means you didn’t have health insurance. Health insurance is generally affordable despite what the GOP says, especially if you’re in poverty then you can get some really good Obamacare for free. Not buying insurance is just about the poorest thing you can do. Yes, before the ACA there was the the whole preexisting condition thing. There’s all kind of whack ass stuff out there. But I’m not talking about corner cases. I’m talking big picture. Step one to not being poor is having insurance.
- sp332 9y ago
  Yes, I was taking it as axiomatic that poor people have less money than rich people. But having more or less money seems to correlate surprisingly weakly with knowledge or behavior. Of course people can do really dumb things but we're not talking about corner cases. I'm talking about the tens of millions of people who get poorer and then less poor without changing their knowledge or behavior very dramatically.
- chatmasta 9y ago
  > sometimes your ancestors The sins of the father... > It’s not random But people cannot choose where, when, or to whom they are born.

jellicle 9y ago

> Generally speaking, aren’t poor people poor because either they don’t know how to be not poor or can’t execute being not poor? No. Generally speaking, people are poor because their parents were poor and because they are in a system which works to make and keep them poor.

linkmotif 9y ago
True, there is a system which works to make and keep them poor. That's undeniable. It's sort of this abusive relationship between the rich and poor, wherein the rich work really hard to keep the poor poor, but then blame them for it as well. But is there not a way that poor people could escape this system? Is there not some set of actions that the poor could take—and the poor are a strong majority of humanity, right?—that they would extricate themselves from the vice grip of the rich? Have they any agency? Or are they just so hopeless that it's impossible?

pdabbadabba 9y ago

> I see people using benefits cards to buy groceries that I would never buy because they are so expensive or unnecessary. I hear people make claims like this frequently and I always wonder if it could possibly be true. I can't remember the last time I paid any attention whatsoever to what other people were buying in the grocery store, much less their mode of payment. This sounds more like the repetition of a certain strain of conservative mythology (with a strong family resemblance to the infamously fictional "welfare queen") than actual anecdote. And if it is true: 1) Maybe consider giving your fellow shoppers a little privacy. And 2) I wonder: exactly what groceries are we talking about here that you can be so sure another person, whose life and preferences you know nothing about, is making not just a mistake, but being "economically offensive" by buying them? Voss bottled water is about the only thing I can think of that might fit the bill here.