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I'm definitely not trying to be "hand-wavy"; apologies if it's taken that way. So let me make this slightly blunter: our goal in SmartOS and illumos is to sol

I'm definitely not trying to be "hand-wavy"; apologies if it's taken that way. So let me make this slightly blunter: our goal in SmartOS and illumos is to solve systems problems -- and yes, we do it with the courage to go our own way where we see fit. If that worldview is a match for you, that's awesome. If that's not a match for you, that's fine too -- world domination is not, in fact, our goal. Yes, we are a small community, but that's fine with us: this is all open source; it's not going away. As an aside, I personally don't understand why anyone would choose to spend their time denigrating small communities; if you want to write your software in (say) OCaml and deploy it on OpenBSD via a Nix derivative, why should anyone spend their time telling you that you are wasting yours? (These are three examples of communities that -- like SmartOS -- are small but technically interesting.) And more importantly: why should you (or anyone, really) listen to a person who has defined themselves so negatively and so rigidly? Your technology choices -- like the books you like or the movies you enjoy or the ideas you have -- are your business; don't let anyone browbeat your choices out of you simply because they don't match their own.

cookiecaper 9y ago
I see the small community in illumos as a benefit, more or less. I'm not trying to denigrate it for its size. The issue is the attrition, the apparently-negative momentum, and the loss of prominent proponents and distributors, including Brendan, OmniTI, etc. That's bad when something is already small. It makes people wonder why others are fleeing. My concern, as it relates to this thread, is around the spectacular loss of faith that Brendan has exhibited. You don't go from being a world-recognized authority on DTrace like Brendan to a Linux refugee overnight, especially not 3 years ago when you have to lay out all the plumbing for eBPF yourself. So something happened. That's clear. I want to know what it is, at least proximally / vaguely, because if it can drive Brendan away from illumos, I assume it can also drive away those of us who are less involved. If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction, that, of course, is one thing that doesn't reflect badly on illumos at all. People burn out sometimes, they want a change of scenery, whatever. But Brendan appears to stringently believe that illumos is now a bad choice in virtually all circumstances. It feels like there's something substantial at play. I don't think he's petty enough to bash the illumos kernel just because he had a spat or wanted to mix things up, especially considering it contains a not-insignificant portion of his own work. I don't necessarily expect either of you to reveal details, and obviously, I respect that you have both moral and legal obligations as it relates to confidentiality surrounding personnel matters. I'm just talking about my read on the situation, and why I'm skittish, despite what I feel are some strong positives in SmartOS's favor. A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking. I'm sure you can understand an outsider's perspective on that. It'd be cool if you could discuss some of the performance ground that illumos has covered since 2014, as Brendan gave a pretty thorough list of ground that Linux has covered. His tone always seems to be "Solaris is a sad situation, but look guys, there's light at the end of the tunnel." He gives absolutely no intimation that illumos is a viable alternative, though he will entertain FreeBSD. Always phrases it like everyone knows Solaris and its derivatives are fully dead, and he alternates between appearing relieved about it and appearing disappointed about it (I'm sure it's both). I just want to know why he rules it out so strictly. It's weird, it doesn't add up. Missing variables. I don't think this attitude is sufficiently justified by "Linux caught up, that's all". When stuff is weird, I approach it cautiously, especially since my goal with SmartOS is something simple, stable, and powerful, no fuss. Weird things are fuss.
- danmcd 9y ago
  OmniTI put OmniOS out to its active community: https://omniosce.org/ https://omniosce.org/ FYI.
- nosequel 9y ago
  > A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking. I don't see where you are getting this idea. There are many contributors to Illumos from all over the globe. https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/graphs/contributors https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/graphs/contributors . Bryan stated in a previous post that Joyent now employs more former Sun engineers than it ever has. > If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction From the outside looking in when Brendan left, reading both the mailing lists and Twitter, this is exactly what it seemed like.
- Annatar 9y ago
  “A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking.“ Bryan Catrill will never be alone for as long as I draw breath: I will single handedly continue working on illumos and SmartOS even if everybody else quits doing that. I have already made up my mind after a lengthy private exchange with Brendan Gregg a while ago.

cookiecaper 9y ago

I see the small community in illumos as a benefit, more or less. I'm not trying to denigrate it for its size. The issue is the attrition, the apparently-negative momentum, and the loss of prominent proponents and distributors, including Brendan, OmniTI, etc. That's bad when something is already small. It makes people wonder why others are fleeing. My concern, as it relates to this thread, is around the spectacular loss of faith that Brendan has exhibited. You don't go from being a world-recognized authority on DTrace like Brendan to a Linux refugee overnight, especially not 3 years ago when you have to lay out all the plumbing for eBPF yourself. So something happened. That's clear. I want to know what it is, at least proximally / vaguely, because if it can drive Brendan away from illumos, I assume it can also drive away those of us who are less involved. If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction, that, of course, is one thing that doesn't reflect badly on illumos at all. People burn out sometimes, they want a change of scenery, whatever. But Brendan appears to stringently believe that illumos is now a bad choice in virtually all circumstances. It feels like there's something substantial at play. I don't think he's petty enough to bash the illumos kernel just because he had a spat or wanted to mix things up, especially considering it contains a not-insignificant portion of his own work. I don't necessarily expect either of you to reveal details, and obviously, I respect that you have both moral and legal obligations as it relates to confidentiality surrounding personnel matters. I'm just talking about my read on the situation, and why I'm skittish, despite what I feel are some strong positives in SmartOS's favor. A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking. I'm sure you can understand an outsider's perspective on that. It'd be cool if you could discuss some of the performance ground that illumos has covered since 2014, as Brendan gave a pretty thorough list of ground that Linux has covered. His tone always seems to be "Solaris is a sad situation, but look guys, there's light at the end of the tunnel." He gives absolutely no intimation that illumos is a viable alternative, though he will entertain FreeBSD. Always phrases it like everyone knows Solaris and its derivatives are fully dead, and he alternates between appearing relieved about it and appearing disappointed about it (I'm sure it's both). I just want to know why he rules it out so strictly. It's weird, it doesn't add up. Missing variables. I don't think this attitude is sufficiently justified by "Linux caught up, that's all". When stuff is weird, I approach it cautiously, especially since my goal with SmartOS is something simple, stable, and powerful, no fuss. Weird things are fuss.

danmcd 9y ago
OmniTI put OmniOS out to its active community: https://omniosce.org/ https://omniosce.org/ FYI.
nosequel 9y ago
> A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking. I don't see where you are getting this idea. There are many contributors to Illumos from all over the globe. https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/graphs/contributors https://github.com/illumos/illumos-gate/graphs/contributors . Bryan stated in a previous post that Joyent now employs more former Sun engineers than it ever has. > If it was simply a personal dispute and had nothing to do with technical direction From the outside looking in when Brendan left, reading both the mailing lists and Twitter, this is exactly what it seemed like.
Annatar 9y ago
“A world where Bryan Cantrill is the lone SmartOS holdout, after his compatriots have declared it a lost cause, is just nerve-wracking.“ Bryan Catrill will never be alone for as long as I draw breath: I will single handedly continue working on illumos and SmartOS even if everybody else quits doing that. I have already made up my mind after a lengthy private exchange with Brendan Gregg a while ago.