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I was kind of skeptical of this lack of tolerance to conservative view was as described by conservatives. Living outside of Silicon Valley (and USA) and being m

by soneca 9y ago

I was kind of skeptical of this lack of tolerance to conservative view was as described by conservatives. Living outside of Silicon Valley (and USA) and being more aligned with this "socially liberal" thinking myself, it seemed conservatives defensive attitude as they were losing space. But then I read this "Ask A Female Engineer: Thoughts on the Google Memo" (http://blog.ycombinator.com/ask-a-female-engineer-thoughts-on-the-google-memo/ http://blog.ycombinator.com/ask-a-female-engineer-thoughts-o...) and the one point most of them seems to agree with the memo is that there is this lack of tolerance to conservative thinking. I still believe there is a lot of good being done by people labeled "social justice warriors" and the so-called "political correctness" is undoubtedly a net good to the world. But I now also think that this lack of tolerance is a real danger that must be fought by the people that are in the same side of the political spectrum that is perpetuating this intolerance (i.e. the more left-wing socially liberal). As I consider to be part of this group, in this particular dimension, I think we should be listening carefully with open minds and hearts to these accusations from people at the more conservative side.

humanrebar 9y ago
This is a well written post from a valid perspective. People wondering where the intolerance is should note that this comment is greyed out as I type this. Disagreeing is fine. But it disappoints me when people silently downvote a reasonable comment.
- dang 9y ago
  Besides its being off topic, one reason the site guidelines ask you not to comment on voting is that it takes time for the community's reaction to settle. Hasty downvotes get corrected by fair-minded users who give corrective upvotes. The comment you're talking about is now well into positive territory. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - humanrebar 9y ago
    Well, the thread was partly a metathread about our culture, so I don't consider it off topic. It seemed particularly tangible and demonstrative in a thread with a lot of subjective back and forth. And maybe the comment would have been upvoted on its own. Maybe not. It's hard to draw a conclusion either way after the fact. I just did what seemed to be the right thing at the time. Anonymously upvoting and shaking my head didn't seem enough.
threatofrain 9y ago
But what conservative viewpoints do you think are most under stress? The viewpoint on the proper separation between men and women, a viewpoint which still grates women even in liberal churches? Even in liberal churches, female leadership may hear aloud and respond to verbiage like "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The proper separation between men and women is a major American conservative need. Can we say this out loud? Also, when we say liberal views, do we mean secular views? Religiously agnostic views? Views which are based upon religiously agnostic shared facts? Which of these views experience the most tension with conservative views? Note that I bring specifically Christianity into this, because it's hard to imagine (perhaps even an abstraction terribly departed from reality) what American conservatism means without Christianity. If Christians voted one way or another, the very meaning of American conservatism would change overnight.
- humanrebar 9y ago
  > The proper separation between men and women is a major American conservative need. It's way off topic for this thread, but I've never heard a conservative talk about needing to separate men and women. > But what conservative viewpoints do you think are most under stress? Well, minority religious viewpoints now that you bring it up. Religious people certainly feel feel like they have to be closeted. They don't use the terms "microaggressions", "soft bigotry", and "privilege", but orthodox religious people (of all stripes) talk about being at a disadvantage in professional settings all the time. Pastors routinely give sermons basically encouraging them (again, using different terms) to "come out of the closet", "celebrate their identity", and "engage in healthy dialogue". Some think (including in this thread), "Good! It's their turn now anyway! They had their chance, now they can be the minorities!" not realizing that the imagined Mad Men suit is actually unlikely to be religious. Church membership is over-represented by women, the poor, the disabled, and so on. African Americans and Latinos are much more likely to attend church than Caucasians. Some think, "Hey, they chose to be this way. They can be like the rest of us if they want respect." Again, I find this attitude ironic given the obvious parallels to other social justice issues. The religious do not feel like they have any say in who God is or what he wants. No more than atheists feel like they have a say in whether God exists. And, perhaps more than (most) athiests, a religious faith is a core part of someone's identity. Basically, I find the fear of religious diversity is a glaring (and intentional) gap in the prevailing postmodern take on diversity. The usual response is usually some form of "they have it coming", which is frankly unrealistic, unhelpful, and combative.
mlloyd 9y ago
I think people no longer feel fine with lip service to hate speech as free speech. You have the right to believe that Hitler was right and to share that, you don't have the right to make people listen or respect that view. People are no longer as religious as they once were. Gender and race equality are accepted more than dissented. These ideals are the cornerstones of conservative beliefs, as well as the whole Fake News era. It's not surprising to me that people are choosing not to share their space with ideas that are so obviously discriminatory and outdated. All that said, I'll defend, against the country and every other government apparatus, any conservative's right to say such things. I will not be sad when a company or a person doesn't want those views affiliated with them or their brand though.
- factsaresacred 9y ago
  > These ideals are the cornerstones of conservative beliefs You have zero idea what you're talking about. It's as if you derived your concept of conservatism from The Daily Show. > hate speech as free speech Speech is speech. It's free (to be spoken) or it's not, regardless of its content. Anything else is a path to censorship.
  - mlloyd 9y ago
    I shouldn't respond but I will anyway. Free speech is only protected by and from the government. It's not protected by and from any other repercussions. I don't have to like you or accept you because I support or defend your ability to exercise your freedom of speech to the government. I do not have to allow that in my home, my business, or my friendship circles. The rest of what you said isn't worth a response.
    - ythn 9y ago
      At what point is it discrimination, though? Sure, you can fire me for "bigotry", but at a certain point your definition of "bigotry" is my definition of "discrimination". Is it cool if I fire all democrats from my company because I don't like their speech?

by soneca 9y ago

humanrebar 9y ago

This is a well written post from a valid perspective. People wondering where the intolerance is should note that this comment is greyed out as I type this. Disagreeing is fine. But it disappoints me when people silently downvote a reasonable comment.

dang 9y ago
Besides its being off topic, one reason the site guidelines ask you not to comment on voting is that it takes time for the community's reaction to settle. Hasty downvotes get corrected by fair-minded users who give corrective upvotes. The comment you're talking about is now well into positive territory. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- humanrebar 9y ago
  Well, the thread was partly a metathread about our culture, so I don't consider it off topic. It seemed particularly tangible and demonstrative in a thread with a lot of subjective back and forth. And maybe the comment would have been upvoted on its own. Maybe not. It's hard to draw a conclusion either way after the fact. I just did what seemed to be the right thing at the time. Anonymously upvoting and shaking my head didn't seem enough.

threatofrain 9y ago

But what conservative viewpoints do you think are most under stress? The viewpoint on the proper separation between men and women, a viewpoint which still grates women even in liberal churches? Even in liberal churches, female leadership may hear aloud and respond to verbiage like "But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The proper separation between men and women is a major American conservative need. Can we say this out loud? Also, when we say liberal views, do we mean secular views? Religiously agnostic views? Views which are based upon religiously agnostic shared facts? Which of these views experience the most tension with conservative views? Note that I bring specifically Christianity into this, because it's hard to imagine (perhaps even an abstraction terribly departed from reality) what American conservatism means without Christianity. If Christians voted one way or another, the very meaning of American conservatism would change overnight.

humanrebar 9y ago
> The proper separation between men and women is a major American conservative need. It's way off topic for this thread, but I've never heard a conservative talk about needing to separate men and women. > But what conservative viewpoints do you think are most under stress? Well, minority religious viewpoints now that you bring it up. Religious people certainly feel feel like they have to be closeted. They don't use the terms "microaggressions", "soft bigotry", and "privilege", but orthodox religious people (of all stripes) talk about being at a disadvantage in professional settings all the time. Pastors routinely give sermons basically encouraging them (again, using different terms) to "come out of the closet", "celebrate their identity", and "engage in healthy dialogue". Some think (including in this thread), "Good! It's their turn now anyway! They had their chance, now they can be the minorities!" not realizing that the imagined Mad Men suit is actually unlikely to be religious. Church membership is over-represented by women, the poor, the disabled, and so on. African Americans and Latinos are much more likely to attend church than Caucasians. Some think, "Hey, they chose to be this way. They can be like the rest of us if they want respect." Again, I find this attitude ironic given the obvious parallels to other social justice issues. The religious do not feel like they have any say in who God is or what he wants. No more than atheists feel like they have a say in whether God exists. And, perhaps more than (most) athiests, a religious faith is a core part of someone's identity. Basically, I find the fear of religious diversity is a glaring (and intentional) gap in the prevailing postmodern take on diversity. The usual response is usually some form of "they have it coming", which is frankly unrealistic, unhelpful, and combative.

mlloyd 9y ago

I think people no longer feel fine with lip service to hate speech as free speech. You have the right to believe that Hitler was right and to share that, you don't have the right to make people listen or respect that view. People are no longer as religious as they once were. Gender and race equality are accepted more than dissented. These ideals are the cornerstones of conservative beliefs, as well as the whole Fake News era. It's not surprising to me that people are choosing not to share their space with ideas that are so obviously discriminatory and outdated. All that said, I'll defend, against the country and every other government apparatus, any conservative's right to say such things. I will not be sad when a company or a person doesn't want those views affiliated with them or their brand though.

factsaresacred 9y ago
> These ideals are the cornerstones of conservative beliefs You have zero idea what you're talking about. It's as if you derived your concept of conservatism from The Daily Show. > hate speech as free speech Speech is speech. It's free (to be spoken) or it's not, regardless of its content. Anything else is a path to censorship.
- mlloyd 9y ago
  I shouldn't respond but I will anyway. Free speech is only protected by and from the government. It's not protected by and from any other repercussions. I don't have to like you or accept you because I support or defend your ability to exercise your freedom of speech to the government. I do not have to allow that in my home, my business, or my friendship circles. The rest of what you said isn't worth a response.
  - ythn 9y ago
    At what point is it discrimination, though? Sure, you can fire me for "bigotry", but at a certain point your definition of "bigotry" is my definition of "discrimination". Is it cool if I fire all democrats from my company because I don't like their speech?