7 ms·

I disagree that this is the product of scale. Looking at some of the bugs coming out of Apple lately and how they respond to them (assuming it's really a trend

by 13of40 9y ago

I disagree that this is the product of scale. Looking at some of the bugs coming out of Apple lately and how they respond to them (assuming it's really a trend and not just a run of bad luck) it feels like they're slipping into a culture where individual feature teams are making emotional or schedule-based decisions about security without central guidance. A good example is the recent bug on MacOS where a low-privileged user could kill other users' processes and reboot the machine, but allegedly this wasn't considered a security problem. It doesn't seem like they have a core part of their organization that drives security practices and knows how to triage and give guidance on these issues, because if the bug had been escalated to a group like that, it would certainly have gotten some traction. It would be nice to hear an insider's take on it...

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
Within the context of the previous comment, this is a great comment. I read it six times in rapid succession and it keeps flipping between being a supporting arguement for and against the parent comment.
- softawre 9y ago
  I like to call that a blue/white rebuttal
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Is this a reference to something I'm not familiar with?
    - mrlyc 9y ago
      It's probably a reference to the debate on Reddit about whether a dress (http://i.imgur.com/9VWYggm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/9VWYggm.jpg) was black and blue or white and gold.
kdot 9y ago
Some bugs are so bad it begs the question if they even test at all, such as the iMessage Apps store favorites bug a few iOS releases ago.
- skygazer 9y ago
  I run iOS public betas. The staggering improvement in quality between beta 1 and beta 7 seems to be evidence that they doing largely effective QA of major “happy paths.” What I do find interesting is that in early betas, things are broken that imply there are either constant fundamental rewrites going on, or that architecture is sloppy. (Hope it’s the former.) After the final betas, the remaining bugs seem to be untested edge cases. Of course, with complexity, there’s a combinatorial explosion of edge cases to test, so it’s likely their QA is constantly being outpaced.
blub 9y ago
You're just making assumptions. All we know is that there's a failure. We don't know what kind of and how many errors triggered the failure, nor do we know what the faults causing the errors were. We certainly don't know what kind of hazard analysis they did and what kind of mitigations they have in place, nor do we know whether they accepted a specific amount of residual risk for e.g. economic or market pressure reasons. We don't know what kind of QC they do. Without this information, it's pointless to talk about how things feel or seem. This is a very large engineering organization, working on a very large and complex system. It's not possible to find the root cause (or any cause) of a failure by using guesswork or by reporting to familiar failure cases.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  > Without this information, it's pointless to talk about how things feel or seem. Au contraire! Without this information we can only talk about how things feel or seem.
  - nicky0 9y ago
    Au contraire yourself. Your statement that this is the only thing we can talk about, does not contradict the assertion that talking about it is pointless.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
      Remind me not to invite you to parties ;)
      - nicky0 9y ago
        Remember not to invite me to parties.
  - dcow 9y ago
    Exactly. One can discuss and imagine all they want without full information and it's very normal and socially and personally productive. I'd refrain from issuing final judgements unless you have "all the info" but that's pretty obvious.
eridius 9y ago
> where a low-privileged user could kill other users' processes Incorrect. A low-privileged user can kill their own processes, which is the expected behavior of kill(-1). The only issue is the fact that this can apparently also kernel panic the machine. But the fact that it kills all the processes belonging to the user is the expected behavior of this call.

by 13of40 9y ago

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

Within the context of the previous comment, this is a great comment. I read it six times in rapid succession and it keeps flipping between being a supporting arguement for and against the parent comment.

softawre 9y ago
I like to call that a blue/white rebuttal
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  Is this a reference to something I'm not familiar with?
  - mrlyc 9y ago
    It's probably a reference to the debate on Reddit about whether a dress (http://i.imgur.com/9VWYggm.jpg http://i.imgur.com/9VWYggm.jpg) was black and blue or white and gold.

kdot 9y ago

Some bugs are so bad it begs the question if they even test at all, such as the iMessage Apps store favorites bug a few iOS releases ago.

skygazer 9y ago
I run iOS public betas. The staggering improvement in quality between beta 1 and beta 7 seems to be evidence that they doing largely effective QA of major “happy paths.” What I do find interesting is that in early betas, things are broken that imply there are either constant fundamental rewrites going on, or that architecture is sloppy. (Hope it’s the former.) After the final betas, the remaining bugs seem to be untested edge cases. Of course, with complexity, there’s a combinatorial explosion of edge cases to test, so it’s likely their QA is constantly being outpaced.

blub 9y ago

You're just making assumptions. All we know is that there's a failure. We don't know what kind of and how many errors triggered the failure, nor do we know what the faults causing the errors were. We certainly don't know what kind of hazard analysis they did and what kind of mitigations they have in place, nor do we know whether they accepted a specific amount of residual risk for e.g. economic or market pressure reasons. We don't know what kind of QC they do. Without this information, it's pointless to talk about how things feel or seem. This is a very large engineering organization, working on a very large and complex system. It's not possible to find the root cause (or any cause) of a failure by using guesswork or by reporting to familiar failure cases.

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
> Without this information, it's pointless to talk about how things feel or seem. Au contraire! Without this information we can only talk about how things feel or seem.
- nicky0 9y ago
  Au contraire yourself. Your statement that this is the only thing we can talk about, does not contradict the assertion that talking about it is pointless.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    Remind me not to invite you to parties ;)
    - nicky0 9y ago
      Remember not to invite me to parties.
- dcow 9y ago
  Exactly. One can discuss and imagine all they want without full information and it's very normal and socially and personally productive. I'd refrain from issuing final judgements unless you have "all the info" but that's pretty obvious.

eridius 9y ago

> where a low-privileged user could kill other users' processes Incorrect. A low-privileged user can kill their own processes, which is the expected behavior of kill(-1). The only issue is the fact that this can apparently also kernel panic the machine. But the fact that it kills all the processes belonging to the user is the expected behavior of this call.